The Virginal Submissive: D/s Above the Waist - 10-27-08

[7:13] Zealot Benmergui: Welcome A/all to the House of V’s College of Kink. My name is Zealot Benmergui, Baron BardHaven and I will be your host today. The topic for today is The Virginal Submissive: D/s Above the Waist and we will be looking at the differences between D/s and BDSM, the role that sex plays in D/s and how submission and Dominance can be shown without sexual activity. Please note that for the purpose of clarity, I will tend to use “she” to refer to a submissive and “he” to refer to a Dominant, but either can be of any gender.
[7:14] Zealot Benmergui: As always, discussion, questions, cookies and animal frontage following the lecture.
[7:15] ***tY***: laughs
[7:15] Zealot Benmergui: First of all, I would like to discuss what I feel is a clear division between what we refer to as BDSM and the philosophy of D/s. Keep in mind that the two concepts are separate but closely linked. BDSM is the popular term for a group of sexual practices. The acronym itself is complex, and refers to Bondage and Discipline (BD), Domination/submission (DS) and Sadism and Masochism (SM) and/or any combination of those. As you can see, that covers a pretty wide range of activities, all sexual in nature, and some of which are now practically mainstream.
[7:15] Zealot Benmergui: In fact, it is harder and harder to be deviant in the modern world. It used to be if you liked oral sex or tended to wear black lace panties you were considered to be town harlot.
[7:16] Zealot Benmergui: I mean hell, when you can see an underage waif in a ball gag and pony gear boots handcuffed to a radiator in a Calvin Klein ad, you have to wonder if anyone out there is still Vanilla. Soccer Moms are getting Brazilians and shopping for anal plugs at Tupperware parties. Guys used to have midlife crisis, now they are becoming transgender gimps and selling themselves to middle aged snuff matrons with percodan dependencies. This is the new fucking millennium, you expect someone to blush and be scandalized by a little consensual flogging?
[7:16] Zealot Benmergui: Now, people tend to include BDSM elements in their sex lives no matter the nature of their relationship or their philosophy. It just is something you do when naked. For most of us in the lifestyle, that is fabulous…for those who are in it to shock the civilians, farm animal fisting while wearing clown suits has been becoming increasingly popular.
7:17] Zealot Benmergui: It's not pretty, but it does frighten the schoolkids.
[7:17] Zealot Benmergui: BDSM is clearly designed as a form of sexual role play, with encounters typically referred to as “scenes” usually taking place during “play sessions” or “play parties”. It is understood that enjoying the occasional BDSM activity does not have any more significance then that you like to give or receive fellatio, or need to be wearing your mother’s old bath robe in order to orgas…well..umm..forget I mentioned the last one.
[7:18] ***RV***: lol
[7:18] ***AG***: *grins*
[7:18] Zealot Benmergui: BDSM online especially tends to be viewed as a sort of fantasy, playing at playing. It can be shared, but if not, that is ok too. After all, when we discuss playing in scenes, it sharpens and focuses attention on the very non reality of what is happening. That unreality is made even stronger online, when for you all you know, the avatar that you are hitting with a scripted pixelated whip while she says “Oh yes Master, this worthless girl is oozing lovegush from her tight little cunny over how masterfully you handle my worthless twat” is actually an out of work stockbroker named Steve who is just doing this while he is waiting for his microwave pizza to ding…and if both sides get off on the scene, then mission is STILL accomplished.
[7:19] ***tY***: lol.. that is one image I hope I don't have to imagine soon in the future
[7:19] Zealot Benmergui: BDSM does not require reality or connection to serve it's purpose.
[7:20] Zealot Benmergui: *smiles...Who knows, V is a big club.
[7:20] ***tY***: laughs
[7:20] Zealot Benmergui: D/s is different, it is more about emotion and connection then it is about throbbing gristle (at least ideally). D/s refers to JUST Dominance/submission and involves a philosophy and lifestyle, not simply a sexual preference. The core elements of a D/s relationship tend to transcend the simply power exchange of a BDSM scene. Rather it defines a way of interacting between two people, which may include the bedroom, and yet it may not.
[7:21] Zealot Benmergui: The “may not” part often confuses people when they first consider it. After all, look around you. House of V is one of the premier bastions of D/s though in SL and almost everything, from the art to the vendors, is all about sex, sex, more sex, and then after the sex, you fuck. Isn’t House of V and D/s in general all about fellows like our friend from last week’s lecture, Tigerseye, who explained to the assemblage that he was sitting there with his pants around his ankles and was waiting for the action to start?
[7:21] ***tY***: lughs, I remember him
[7:22] ***AG***: ewww
[7:22] Zealot Benmergui: I offered to help jerk him off while I lectured but he decided to go look at stonehendge, perhaps hoping for NixieSex
[7:22] ***RV***: hehe
[7:22] ***AG***: =0
[7:22] Zealot Benmergui: The answer is, not terribly shockingly, yes and no. Yes D/s is often expressed in terms and images which the mainstream vanilla world consider to be sexual, even oversexed. Women in latex cat suits, revealing silks or nothing at all, men in leather harnesses with enormous spiked codpieces…isn’t that want we expect to see when we enter a D/s club? That is certainly the visual presentation of both BDSM and much of the D/s community; however BDSM tends to be about the action, while D/s is the philosophy.
[7:23] ***ML***: go to sex island and rate the noobs .. thats alawys fun in spare time :P
[7:23] Zealot Benmergui: Therefore, it is not a major leap to realize that there are many ways to experience and express the philosophy of D/s that don’t involve taking your pants off. The underpinnings of D/s are trust, responsibility, the ability to put your faith and fate in another person’s hands, and to receive the same. No different than any other good relationship really, just a bit more direct, with its own nuances and flow. People have accepted romantic love without sex for generations, why not submission without sex?
[7:23] ***ML***: and dont forget the long hair in ponytails for men too
[7:24] Zealot Benmergui: well sure..and chaps
[7:24] ***ML***: O.o yes
[7:24] Zealot Benmergui: I have not seen so many men in chaps in one place since they banned poppers at Village People concerts
[7:25] Zealot Benmergui: I have known couples who have said that the depth and clarity of their D/s relationship ***DS***pened immeasurably from periods of enforced chastity, or by simply choosing to take a break sexually for awhile. It is easy to show you are Dominant by grabbing a girl by the collar and fucking her somewhat distracted brains out, just as it is easy to show submission by letting said brains get fucked out. Without the sex, how can the Fucker and fuckee still express their roles in the relationship?
[7:25] Zealot Benmergui: First and foremost, it is something that needs to be decided by each couple, through discussion and experimentation.
[7:26] Zealot Benmergui: Perhaps it is a certain way of speaking to one another, a certain ritual they follow, a certain way of acting or behaving, that for each of the two individuals, signals and relates to a sense of submission and Dominance.
[7:27] Zealot Benmergui: In the modern world, those things which would be considered to be traditionally about Dominance in a relationship are not very feasible, or even desirable
[7:28] Zealot Benmergui: Fifty years ago, if the submissive half of a relationship went out to earn money, the Dominant was a pimp.
[7:28] ***tY***: (or lazy.. )
[7:28] Zealot Benmergui: That simple isn;t the case anymore...most households now need two breadwinners...and it is hard as hell to break into the industry since Pimps unionized.
[7:28] ***tY***: laughs
[7:29] Zealot Benmergui: Housework, parentling duties, financial obligations, all are shared in real world relationships..and though those aren;t terribly relevant to most onl;ine D/s couples, the frame of mind carries through.
[7:30] Zealot Benmergui: Most submissives would say that while they are under the control of their Masters, they are "equal" to their Dom as people..they just choose a submissive role. This is a sign of a healthy attitude to D/s and should be encouraged, therefore more and more focus on personal expressions of submission should be seen.
[7:31] ***ML***: I love that statement right there Sir
[7:31] ***tY***: I am not sure I agree with it, but that is so unusual for me to disagree
[7:31] ***ML***: hehe
[7:32] ***tY***: smiles innocently.. or tries to
[7:32] Zealot Benmergui: Just as love does nopt need to be sexual, neither does sumission or Dominance and a chaste D/s relationship is just as reasonable and viable as a sexual one..just becuase society as a whole tends to put more emphasis on sex doesn;t mean that every relation must do so as well...despire all the pose balls floating around.
[7:33] Zealot Benmergui: *nods...the fact that you feel the freedom and confidence to disagree tends to fly in the face of the normal submissive stereotype, Miss ***tY***.
[7:33] Charon Jenns: *stifles a guffaw*
[7:34] ***tY***: smile, that is true, Sir Zealot.. but the sterotype is only the steroetype
[7:34] Zealot Benmergui: Exactly
[7:34] ***tY***: I would hope there is little about me that is stereotypical
[7:34] Zealot Benmergui: Just as the concept that D/s is all about kinky sex is also, a stereotype...and one that tends to get in the way of some relationships.
[7:34] ***tY***: smiles and agrees
[7:35] Zealot Benmergui: *smiles..Very little Miss ***tY***....those shoes, that is about it.
[7:35] ***tY***: laughs
[7:35] ***RV***: lol
[7:35] Zealot Benmergui: So to paraphrase at this point...
[7:35] Zealot Benmergui: D/s is the philsophy behind the sexual practices of BDSM
[7:36] Zealot Benmergui: It is possible for a couple to be involved in a D/s relationship without BDSM, or any sex at all for that matter.
[7:36] Zealot Benmergui: Submission and Dominance can be show in many ways, unique to each relationship, and these should be encouraged and treasured by both partners.
[7:37] Zealot Benmergui: At this point, I will throw this topic open to the floor and ask for your views on what sort of non-sexual actions you like as ways to show submission, or Dominance for that matter since I know at least one of you switchs like a southpaw shortstop
[7:38] ***tY***: finds herself agreeing and quickly takes her temperature...
[7:38] ***RV***: rofl
[7:39] Zealot Benmergui: I have often heard certain old fashioned gestures mentioned in this context..men holding doors, etc...
[7:39] ***tY***: trying to think, I guess I am more polie when I am with a dominant
[7:39] Zealot Benmergui: things which clearly define the sex roles that were more or less denounced as parternalistic facist agressions against female personhood in the 70s
[7:39] ***ML***: a regular relationship can be viewed by some as D/s.. simply the wife asking for permission to purchase something etc.. can show the a simple aspect of D/s
[7:39] ***tY***: *polite
[7:40] ***tY***: I am less likely to want to offend if it is a dominant who means something to me
[7:40] ***RV***: at home it's something as simple as cooking his favorite dish when i know he's had a hard day, bringing him a drink and letting him just chill in front of the tv
[7:40] ***ML***: mmhmm
[7:40] Zealot Benmergui: so you are saying that certain forms of consideration are in fact submissive?
[7:41] ***ML***: sure
[7:41] ***tY***: they are for me
[7:41] Zealot Benmergui: Didn;t harriet always do such things for Ozzie? hard to picture her in nadu
[7:41] ***RV***: lol
[7:41] ***ML***: maybe she was the one with the cuffs tho
[7:41] Zealot Benmergui: or actually..I can..but shouldn;t when I don;t have wetwipes handy
[7:41] ***RV***: shudders
[7:42] ***tY***: well, I wouldn;t show my submission by cooking a meal.. not really my thing.. but that is the point.. relationships are individual and unique
[7:42] Zealot Benmergui: maybe show your submission by calling for takeout?
[7:42] ***tY***: laughs
[7:42] ***RV***: grins ... well, i don't cook at home, he does, so when i cook it's a special thing
[7:42] Zealot Benmergui: or encourage him to get a second girl,...one who cooks
[7:43] ***tY***: who cooks the meal has never been part of my idea of D/s.. though I suppose it is for other people
[7:43] Zealot Benmergui: exactly...so what do you feel are elements of D/s in your normal daily relationship?
[7:43] ***ML***: but then some forms of communication can be taken as submissive also
[7:43] ***tY***: if D/s just reverts to a modern version of ozzie and harriet.. aren't we just defining Doms as old fashioned male chauvinist pigs?
[7:44] Zealot Benmergui: A lot of people would
[7:44] Zealot Benmergui: but then, there is a potato/potatoe thing at work
[7:44] Zealot Benmergui: Sister Mary Discipline would callme a smutmonger..I say I appretiate the artistic beauty of the female form
[7:45] ***RV***: i don't though ... i love doing things for him, it makes me feel good to know that i'm meeting his needs and desires, even in the simple ways
[7:45] Zealot Benmergui: next question***RV***...if a submissive nadus in the forest and no one sees her, is it submission
[7:46] ***tY***: laughs
[7:46] ***RV***: lol
[7:46] Zealot Benmergui: that is, does a submissive act have to be understood by the Dom to count?
[7:46] ***RV***: nope
[7:46] ***tY***: it would count to her, but not to him.. better if it counts for both of them
[7:46] ***RV***: submission is something the submissive expresses, regardless of who sees it or understands it
[7:47] Zealot Benmergui: perhaps there are two forms..inner submission and outer submission
[7:47] Zealot Benmergui: after all, do you all agree that there is a part of your soul that feels good when you are being submissive?
[7:47] ***ML***: of course
[7:47] ***RV***: a for instance .... he might not see it as submission, but when i give him the remote and let him watch whatever he wants on tv, i'm definintely submitting to him
[7:48] Zealot Benmergui: regardless of anyone elses reaction to it?
[7:48] ***tY***: if I feel the dominant deserves it, yes
[7:48] Zealot Benmergui: Or your episode of America's Most gruesome Policer Stops is over
[7:48] Zealot Benmergui: *Police
[7:48] ***RV***: lol
[7:49] Zealot Benmergui: There is a more delicate side to this question....for the Dom
[7:49] Zealot Benmergui: When does an action stop being showing Dominance, and become "being a damn prick"
[7:49] ***RV***: that can be a very fine line
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: Is there a line at all?
[7:50] ***ML***: whats when knowing the person your with comes into play
[7:50] ***ML***: haha
[7:50] ***tY***: isn't the relationhsip about meeting each other's needs?
[7:50] ***RV***: i happen to think there isn't really, as long as the Dom and sub are communicating
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: absolutely Miss ***tY***
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: for me, in practice it is the line where her reactions change
[7:50] ***tY***: if by being a "damn prick" he is not meeting her needs.. but only his own ..then to me there would be a problem
[7:51] Zealot Benmergui: to use a poor analogy..when heating milk...
[7:51] Zealot Benmergui: there is a moment right between heating and oiling...only a moment, and then it is too late and the form has changed
[7:51] Zealot Benmergui: with a submissive, there is a moment when the submissive saying "yes Master" becomes the person saying "Go fuck yourself"
[7:52] ***tY***: that's true
[7:52] ***tY***: the dominant always runs the risk that the submissive will disobey
[7:52] Zealot Benmergui: the trick is knowing them well enough to sense that line..since most submissive say that the closer you get to that line with out crossing it, the more satisfying the situation is to them
[7:53] Zealot Benmergui: exactly...since in the end if she just says No...what is the Dom going to do? Hit her?
[7:53] ***RV***: for me, it's not what i'm being asked to do, it's how it's being done. i expect to actually be asked, not ordered, even if it's understood that i'm expected to say yes
[7:53] Zealot Benmergui: those moments are where one most often see D/s couples break down..as the power exchange goes wonky
[7:53] Zealot Benmergui: She says No, he ends up pleading quite often...PLEEASSSEEEE submit
[7:53] ***tY***: right, once she has said no.. or wishes to negotiate the direction or order.. if he cares for her, he will change His plan..
[7:54] ***ML*** giggles and thinks of wonky things
[7:54] Zealot Benmergui: Options are always a good path...if the Dom rules out a certain choice, but leaves the other two open...
[7:54] ***tY***: yes
[7:54] ***RV***: nods
[7:55] ***tY***: as most Doms know, there are many ways to get what you want..
[7:55] Zealot Benmergui: Chocolate is always popular
[7:55] ***tY***: laughs
[7:56] ***ML***: mmmmmmm
[7:56] ***ML*** ears perk up
[7:56] Zealot Benmergui: again, each relationship is different, but usually limited walls and ultimatums is a good rule of thumb for the Dom
[7:56] ***tY***: it is a skill to get what you want.. of course submissives know this too.. they just have to be careful of obviously topping the dominant
[7:56] Zealot Benmergui: Saying "It will be this way, OR ELSE" means that you have basically given up dominance
[7:56] ***tY***: yes
[7:56] Zealot Benmergui: Now you're just a bully
[7:56] ***ML***: it can be taken into context of manipulating
[7:57] Zealot Benmergui: and it betrays one of the little secrets that Lord Thundercock Slutwhomper usually doesn;t want his chain to notice....
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: He can only Dom them, with their consent.
[7:58] ***tY***: exactly
[7:58] ***RV***: what it boils down to is this (for me) ... the Dom says "I prefer things to be this way" and the submissive either agrees or communicates why she disagrees so that the Dom can make a choice about what to do.
[7:58] ***tY***: agrees with ***RV*** too
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: that is very sensible
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: again, communication is key
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: and the ability to step out of the roles
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: calla time out
[7:59] Zealot Benmergui: say "This bothered me, and here is why" or "I can;t have it that way, I need it this way"
[7:59] Zealot Benmergui: just as the Dom can do the same
[8:00] Zealot Benmergui: leave the role and say "Look, what do you think about this..not as a submissive, but as my wife, lover, underage captive, stepsister, whatever
[8:00] ***RV***: lol
[8:00] ***tY***: I understand what you are saying.. but I don't feel like I am playing a role
[8:01] Zealot Benmergui: it is a semantics game
[8:01] Zealot Benmergui: I don;t mean role as in "Acting a part"
[8:01] Zealot Benmergui: I mean role as in "your place in life, your part in the realtionship"
[8:01] ***tY***: the dominant either has the ability to make me feel submissive, or he does not
[8:01] ***RV***: i think what he's saying is that there should be a way to communicate as equals
[8:01] ***tY***: (yes, I know what you mean)
[8:02] Zealot Benmergui: As always it depends on the relationship, but yes ***RV***, I do feel there needs to be a way to step outside of submission and Dominance
[8:02] Zealot Benmergui: however, as with Miss Yeyuan, that won;t work for some people, which is also good...as long as both sides understand that
[8:02] ***RV***: nods
[8:03] ***tY***: yes, it is back to realizing that each relationship will be different
[8:03] Zealot Benmergui: which is vitally important, and often people forget
[8:03] ***tY***: yes
[8:04] Zealot Benmergui: ugly truth...if you walk into the club right now, 50 percent of the girls, and 50 percent of the men, will be so alike it is frightening
[8:04] ***tY***: in their behaviour, you mean, Sir Zealot?
[8:04] Zealot Benmergui: it is very easy to fall into the trap of assuming that all relationships in D/s follow a certain model or template
[8:05] ***tY***: yes, like there is a template one must follow
[8:05] Zealot Benmergui: behavior yes, but also the sense you get from them, how they look, act, respond...people trying to fit themselves into a mold
[8:05] ***tY***: yes
[8:05] ***tY***: when it becomes like that.. each is interchangeable.. they are all so similar
[8:05] Zealot Benmergui: D/s shouldbe about breaking molds..about learning things about yourself that are not found on the safe path
[8:06] ***RV***: subs speakinsg in the third person is a perfect example ... for most people, that's not at all comfortable, or even required
[8:06] Zealot Benmergui: and relationship wise, sex is a pretty safe, or at least typical path
[8:06] Zealot Benmergui: there are things that can be found otherwise that sex does nothing but obscure
[8:07] Zealot Benmergui: We all have billions of examples of that sort of thing ***RV***..the term girl, for example
[8:07] ***tY***: yes, I haven't seen subs speak a lot in the 3rd person.. but certainly a lot of slaves do. especially gorean ones
[8:07] ***DS***: all gorean slaves speak in the 3rd person
[8:08] Zealot Benmergui: It is a natural term for some, others find it dismissive...personally I haven;t been into girl's since I was a boy...
[8:08] ***tY***: not true.. it is up to the owner if she speaks in the 3rd or the first
[8:08] Zealot Benmergui: It is the norm in Gor, yes..but as always, it is a point of personal preference
[8:08] ***ML***: hahaha
[8:08] ***DS***: I have seen none except one or two who may say they are someone's pet
[8:09] ***ML***: i wasnt taught to speak in 3rd person.. but yet the Masters here in SL see it being disobidient and rude
[8:09] Zealot Benmergui: But we aren;t discussing Gor truly..remember Gor is far more rule based, since it basically is based on a book of rules
[8:09] ***tY***: speaking in the 3rd person is tiresome.. I have done it enough.. it is burdonsome.. and becomes so formal..
[8:09] ***DS***: true
[8:09] ***DS***: didnt mean to interupt
[8:09] Zealot Benmergui: not at all...you stressed a very important point
[8:09] Zealot Benmergui: cultural norms
[8:10] Zealot Benmergui: in some communities certain things are done which others don;t accept
[8:10] ***DS***: and Gor IS vbery stuctured
[8:10] ***DS***: very
[8:10] ***tY***: yes
[8:10] Zealot Benmergui: nods..another aspect of non-sexual D/s is being adaptable to the surroundings
[8:10] Zealot Benmergui: There is a certain amount of "When in Rome..."
[8:11] Zealot Benmergui: a perfect example....back to the term girl
[8:11] Zealot Benmergui: for some, it is a term of affection, for others, an insult
[8:11] Zealot Benmergui: quick poll
[8:11] ***tY***: it is true that some dominants get annoyed if a submissive does not speak to them in a way they expect.. almost as if allsubmissives should be of a certain type
[8:12] Zealot Benmergui: man you don;t know, clearly Dom, calls you girl when meeting you
[8:12] ***RV***: ugh
[8:12] Zealot Benmergui: how many of you would be offended by that?
[8:12] ***RV*** raises her hand
[8:12] ***DS***: not I
[8:12] Charon Jenns: i wouldn't be offended...but a bit amused
[8:12] ***tY***: I don'tlike it, but would be unlikely to say anything if the rest of the conversation was fine
[8:12] Zealot Benmergui: nods...and that is a perfect gamur of reaction
[8:13] Zealot Benmergui: based on your own experiences, preferences and history
[8:13] ***tY***: yes
[8:13] Zealot Benmergui: adapting to preferences like thatis another aspect of non sexual D/s, very subtle but very meaningful
[8:14] ***tY***: yes
[8:14] ***tY***: smiles
[8:14] Zealot Benmergui: it is not just true for subs, but Doms as well, the difference is Doms are more likely to ignore the issue
[8:15] ***DS***: how mhow much of co-dependency involved in the whole sub thing , if you know
[8:15] Zealot Benmergui: for example...those of you who have been to these lectures before, or seen me in V or other clubs know that I prefer to call women Miss unless I am very close to them for a good period of time
[8:15] ***tY***: it sometimes feels that Doms would like subs who are like clones..
[8:15] Zealot Benmergui: some subs have taken me to task for calling them Miss
[8:16] ***tY***: yes, I have noticed that about you Sir Zealot, and it is appreciated by many, I am sure
[8:16] ***tY***: smile, I would not, but then I am not all
[8:16] Zealot Benmergui: to be honest, I do not do it for them, but for myself.,.it is a preference of my own that I impose on them....though there are some who have been so upset by it I just don;t call them anything
[8:17] Zealot Benmergui: but again, preference and the way it is handled is a way to show Dominance
[8:17] Zealot Benmergui: just as it is to show submission
[8:17] ***tY***: I think it is the misperception that Miss can only be used to indicate a Domme
[8:17] Zealot Benmergui: likely
[8:18] Zealot Benmergui: What other ways are there to show submission or dominance without attaching the ole priminator?
[8:18] ***tY***: thank you once again for the interesting discussion, Sir Zealot, I apologize but I must go, it is late here
[8:18] ***AG***: ((makes a quiet exit --ty ))
[8:18] Zealot Benmergui: Of course Miss Yeyuan, thank you
[8:18] ***tY***: thank you
[8:19] ***tY***: hugs sissie and tps home
[8:20] Zealot Benmergui: Well, if there are no more comments, I think iwill start wrapping this up for the day
[8:20] ***DS***: thanks Zealot
[8:20] Zealot Benmergui: In closing...Never be afraid of looking for the new path, the untried approach to submission or Dominance.
[8:21] ***RV***: Once again, thank you for a wonderful lecture, Z.
[8:21] Zealot Benmergui: Never assume that kneeling, or submitting sexually, or calling someone master are the only ways to express your feelings, or your nature...
[8:21] Zealot Benmergui: Who you are transcends the views of others, or your own sexuality...depend on it[7:13] Zealot Benmergui: Welcome A/all to the House of V’s College of Kink. My name is Zealot Benmergui, Baron BardHaven and I will be your host today. The topic for today is The Virginal Submissive: D/s Above the Waist and we will be looking at the differences between D/s and BDSM, the role that sex plays in D/s and how submission and Dominance can be shown without sexual activity. Please note that for the purpose of clarity, I will tend to use “she” to refer to a submissive and “he” to refer to a Dominant, but either can be of any gender.
[7:14] Zealot Benmergui: As always, discussion, questions, cookies and animal frontage following the lecture.
[7:15] ***tY***: laughs
[7:15] Zealot Benmergui: First of all, I would like to discuss what I feel is a clear division between what we refer to as BDSM and the philosophy of D/s. Keep in mind that the two concepts are separate but closely linked. BDSM is the popular term for a group of sexual practices. The acronym itself is complex, and refers to Bondage and Discipline (BD), Domination/submission (DS) and Sadism and Masochism (SM) and/or any combination of those. As you can see, that covers a pretty wide range of activities, all sexual in nature, and some of which are now practically mainstream.
[7:15] Zealot Benmergui: In fact, it is harder and harder to be deviant in the modern world. It used to be if you liked oral sex or tended to wear black lace panties you were considered to be town harlot.
[7:16] Zealot Benmergui: I mean hell, when you can see an underage waif in a ball gag and pony gear boots handcuffed to a radiator in a Calvin Klein ad, you have to wonder if anyone out there is still Vanilla. Soccer Moms are getting Brazilians and shopping for anal plugs at Tupperware parties. Guys used to have midlife crisis, now they are becoming transgender gimps and selling themselves to middle aged snuff matrons with percodan dependencies. This is the new fucking millennium, you expect someone to blush and be scandalized by a little consensual flogging?
[7:16] Zealot Benmergui: Now, people tend to include BDSM elements in their sex lives no matter the nature of their relationship or their philosophy. It just is something you do when naked. For most of us in the lifestyle, that is fabulous…for those who are in it to shock the civilians, farm animal fisting while wearing clown suits has been becoming increasingly popular.
7:17] Zealot Benmergui: It's not pretty, but it does frighten the schoolkids.
[7:17] Zealot Benmergui: BDSM is clearly designed as a form of sexual role play, with encounters typically referred to as “scenes” usually taking place during “play sessions” or “play parties”. It is understood that enjoying the occasional BDSM activity does not have any more significance then that you like to give or receive fellatio, or need to be wearing your mother’s old bath robe in order to orgas…well..umm..forget I mentioned the last one.
[7:18] ***RV***: lol
[7:18] ***AG***: *grins*
[7:18] Zealot Benmergui: BDSM online especially tends to be viewed as a sort of fantasy, playing at playing. It can be shared, but if not, that is ok too. After all, when we discuss playing in scenes, it sharpens and focuses attention on the very non reality of what is happening. That unreality is made even stronger online, when for you all you know, the avatar that you are hitting with a scripted pixelated whip while she says “Oh yes Master, this worthless girl is oozing lovegush from her tight little cunny over how masterfully you handle my worthless twat” is actually an out of work stockbroker named Steve who is just doing this while he is waiting for his microwave pizza to ding…and if both sides get off on the scene, then mission is STILL accomplished.
[7:19] ***tY***: lol.. that is one image I hope I don't have to imagine soon in the future
[7:19] Zealot Benmergui: BDSM does not require reality or connection to serve it's purpose.
[7:20] Zealot Benmergui: *smiles...Who knows, V is a big club.
[7:20] ***tY***: laughs
[7:20] Zealot Benmergui: D/s is different, it is more about emotion and connection then it is about throbbing gristle (at least ideally). D/s refers to JUST Dominance/submission and involves a philosophy and lifestyle, not simply a sexual preference. The core elements of a D/s relationship tend to transcend the simply power exchange of a BDSM scene. Rather it defines a way of interacting between two people, which may include the bedroom, and yet it may not.
[7:21] Zealot Benmergui: The “may not” part often confuses people when they first consider it. After all, look around you. House of V is one of the premier bastions of D/s though in SL and almost everything, from the art to the vendors, is all about sex, sex, more sex, and then after the sex, you fuck. Isn’t House of V and D/s in general all about fellows like our friend from last week’s lecture, Tigerseye, who explained to the assemblage that he was sitting there with his pants around his ankles and was waiting for the action to start?
[7:21] ***tY***: lughs, I remember him
[7:22] ***AG***: ewww
[7:22] Zealot Benmergui: I offered to help jerk him off while I lectured but he decided to go look at stonehendge, perhaps hoping for NixieSex
[7:22] ***RV***: hehe
[7:22] ***AG***: =0
[7:22] Zealot Benmergui: The answer is, not terribly shockingly, yes and no. Yes D/s is often expressed in terms and images which the mainstream vanilla world consider to be sexual, even oversexed. Women in latex cat suits, revealing silks or nothing at all, men in leather harnesses with enormous spiked codpieces…isn’t that want we expect to see when we enter a D/s club? That is certainly the visual presentation of both BDSM and much of the D/s community; however BDSM tends to be about the action, while D/s is the philosophy.
[7:23] ***ML***: go to sex island and rate the noobs .. thats alawys fun in spare time :P
[7:23] Zealot Benmergui: Therefore, it is not a major leap to realize that there are many ways to experience and express the philosophy of D/s that don’t involve taking your pants off. The underpinnings of D/s are trust, responsibility, the ability to put your faith and fate in another person’s hands, and to receive the same. No different than any other good relationship really, just a bit more direct, with its own nuances and flow. People have accepted romantic love without sex for generations, why not submission without sex?
[7:23] ***ML***: and dont forget the long hair in ponytails for men too
[7:24] Zealot Benmergui: well sure..and chaps
[7:24] ***ML***: O.o yes
[7:24] Zealot Benmergui: I have not seen so many men in chaps in one place since they banned poppers at Village People concerts
[7:25] Zealot Benmergui: I have known couples who have said that the depth and clarity of their D/s relationship ***DS***pened immeasurably from periods of enforced chastity, or by simply choosing to take a break sexually for awhile. It is easy to show you are Dominant by grabbing a girl by the collar and fucking her somewhat distracted brains out, just as it is easy to show submission by letting said brains get fucked out. Without the sex, how can the Fucker and fuckee still express their roles in the relationship?
[7:25] Zealot Benmergui: First and foremost, it is something that needs to be decided by each couple, through discussion and experimentation.
[7:26] Zealot Benmergui: Perhaps it is a certain way of speaking to one another, a certain ritual they follow, a certain way of acting or behaving, that for each of the two individuals, signals and relates to a sense of submission and Dominance.
[7:27] Zealot Benmergui: In the modern world, those things which would be considered to be traditionally about Dominance in a relationship are not very feasible, or even desirable
[7:28] Zealot Benmergui: Fifty years ago, if the submissive half of a relationship went out to earn money, the Dominant was a pimp.
[7:28] ***tY***: (or lazy.. )
[7:28] Zealot Benmergui: That simple isn;t the case anymore...most households now need two breadwinners...and it is hard as hell to break into the industry since Pimps unionized.
[7:28] ***tY***: laughs
[7:29] Zealot Benmergui: Housework, parentling duties, financial obligations, all are shared in real world relationships..and though those aren;t terribly relevant to most onl;ine D/s couples, the frame of mind carries through.
[7:30] Zealot Benmergui: Most submissives would say that while they are under the control of their Masters, they are "equal" to their Dom as people..they just choose a submissive role. This is a sign of a healthy attitude to D/s and should be encouraged, therefore more and more focus on personal expressions of submission should be seen.
[7:31] ***ML***: I love that statement right there Sir
[7:31] ***tY***: I am not sure I agree with it, but that is so unusual for me to disagree
[7:31] ***ML***: hehe
[7:32] ***tY***: smiles innocently.. or tries to
[7:32] Zealot Benmergui: Just as love does nopt need to be sexual, neither does sumission or Dominance and a chaste D/s relationship is just as reasonable and viable as a sexual one..just becuase society as a whole tends to put more emphasis on sex doesn;t mean that every relation must do so as well...despire all the pose balls floating around.
[7:33] Zealot Benmergui: *nods...the fact that you feel the freedom and confidence to disagree tends to fly in the face of the normal submissive stereotype, Miss ***tY***.
[7:33] Charon Jenns: *stifles a guffaw*
[7:34] ***tY***: smile, that is true, Sir Zealot.. but the sterotype is only the steroetype
[7:34] Zealot Benmergui: Exactly
[7:34] ***tY***: I would hope there is little about me that is stereotypical
[7:34] Zealot Benmergui: Just as the concept that D/s is all about kinky sex is also, a stereotype...and one that tends to get in the way of some relationships.
[7:34] ***tY***: smiles and agrees
[7:35] Zealot Benmergui: *smiles..Very little Miss ***tY***....those shoes, that is about it.
[7:35] ***tY***: laughs
[7:35] ***RV***: lol
[7:35] Zealot Benmergui: So to paraphrase at this point...
[7:35] Zealot Benmergui: D/s is the philsophy behind the sexual practices of BDSM
[7:36] Zealot Benmergui: It is possible for a couple to be involved in a D/s relationship without BDSM, or any sex at all for that matter.
[7:36] Zealot Benmergui: Submission and Dominance can be show in many ways, unique to each relationship, and these should be encouraged and treasured by both partners.
[7:37] Zealot Benmergui: At this point, I will throw this topic open to the floor and ask for your views on what sort of non-sexual actions you like as ways to show submission, or Dominance for that matter since I know at least one of you switchs like a southpaw shortstop
[7:38] ***tY***: finds herself agreeing and quickly takes her temperature...
[7:38] ***RV***: rofl
[7:39] Zealot Benmergui: I have often heard certain old fashioned gestures mentioned in this context..men holding doors, etc...
[7:39] ***tY***: trying to think, I guess I am more polie when I am with a dominant
[7:39] Zealot Benmergui: things which clearly define the sex roles that were more or less denounced as parternalistic facist agressions against female personhood in the 70s
[7:39] ***ML***: a regular relationship can be viewed by some as D/s.. simply the wife asking for permission to purchase something etc.. can show the a simple aspect of D/s
[7:39] ***tY***: *polite
[7:40] ***tY***: I am less likely to want to offend if it is a dominant who means something to me
[7:40] ***RV***: at home it's something as simple as cooking his favorite dish when i know he's had a hard day, bringing him a drink and letting him just chill in front of the tv
[7:40] ***ML***: mmhmm
[7:40] Zealot Benmergui: so you are saying that certain forms of consideration are in fact submissive?
[7:41] ***ML***: sure
[7:41] ***tY***: they are for me
[7:41] Zealot Benmergui: Didn;t harriet always do such things for Ozzie? hard to picture her in nadu
[7:41] ***RV***: lol
[7:41] ***ML***: maybe she was the one with the cuffs tho
[7:41] Zealot Benmergui: or actually..I can..but shouldn;t when I don;t have wetwipes handy
[7:41] ***RV***: shudders
[7:42] ***tY***: well, I wouldn;t show my submission by cooking a meal.. not really my thing.. but that is the point.. relationships are individual and unique
[7:42] Zealot Benmergui: maybe show your submission by calling for takeout?
[7:42] ***tY***: laughs
[7:42] ***RV***: grins ... well, i don't cook at home, he does, so when i cook it's a special thing
[7:42] Zealot Benmergui: or encourage him to get a second girl,...one who cooks
[7:43] ***tY***: who cooks the meal has never been part of my idea of D/s.. though I suppose it is for other people
[7:43] Zealot Benmergui: exactly...so what do you feel are elements of D/s in your normal daily relationship?
[7:43] ***ML***: but then some forms of communication can be taken as submissive also
[7:43] ***tY***: if D/s just reverts to a modern version of ozzie and harriet.. aren't we just defining Doms as old fashioned male chauvinist pigs?
[7:44] Zealot Benmergui: A lot of people would
[7:44] Zealot Benmergui: but then, there is a potato/potatoe thing at work
[7:44] Zealot Benmergui: Sister Mary Discipline would callme a smutmonger..I say I appretiate the artistic beauty of the female form
[7:45] ***RV***: i don't though ... i love doing things for him, it makes me feel good to know that i'm meeting his needs and desires, even in the simple ways
[7:45] Zealot Benmergui: next question***RV***...if a submissive nadus in the forest and no one sees her, is it submission
[7:46] ***tY***: laughs
[7:46] ***RV***: lol
[7:46] Zealot Benmergui: that is, does a submissive act have to be understood by the Dom to count?
[7:46] ***RV***: nope
[7:46] ***tY***: it would count to her, but not to him.. better if it counts for both of them
[7:46] ***RV***: submission is something the submissive expresses, regardless of who sees it or understands it
[7:47] Zealot Benmergui: perhaps there are two forms..inner submission and outer submission
[7:47] Zealot Benmergui: after all, do you all agree that there is a part of your soul that feels good when you are being submissive?
[7:47] ***ML***: of course
[7:47] ***RV***: a for instance .... he might not see it as submission, but when i give him the remote and let him watch whatever he wants on tv, i'm definintely submitting to him
[7:48] Zealot Benmergui: regardless of anyone elses reaction to it?
[7:48] ***tY***: if I feel the dominant deserves it, yes
[7:48] Zealot Benmergui: Or your episode of America's Most gruesome Policer Stops is over
[7:48] Zealot Benmergui: *Police
[7:48] ***RV***: lol
[7:49] Zealot Benmergui: There is a more delicate side to this question....for the Dom
[7:49] Zealot Benmergui: When does an action stop being showing Dominance, and become "being a damn prick"
[7:49] ***RV***: that can be a very fine line
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: Is there a line at all?
[7:50] ***ML***: whats when knowing the person your with comes into play
[7:50] ***ML***: haha
[7:50] ***tY***: isn't the relationhsip about meeting each other's needs?
[7:50] ***RV***: i happen to think there isn't really, as long as the Dom and sub are communicating
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: absolutely Miss ***tY***
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: for me, in practice it is the line where her reactions change
[7:50] ***tY***: if by being a "damn prick" he is not meeting her needs.. but only his own ..then to me there would be a problem
[7:51] Zealot Benmergui: to use a poor analogy..when heating milk...
[7:51] Zealot Benmergui: there is a moment right between heating and oiling...only a moment, and then it is too late and the form has changed
[7:51] Zealot Benmergui: with a submissive, there is a moment when the submissive saying "yes Master" becomes the person saying "Go fuck yourself"
[7:52] ***tY***: that's true
[7:52] ***tY***: the dominant always runs the risk that the submissive will disobey
[7:52] Zealot Benmergui: the trick is knowing them well enough to sense that line..since most submissive say that the closer you get to that line with out crossing it, the more satisfying the situation is to them
[7:53] Zealot Benmergui: exactly...since in the end if she just says No...what is the Dom going to do? Hit her?
[7:53] ***RV***: for me, it's not what i'm being asked to do, it's how it's being done. i expect to actually be asked, not ordered, even if it's understood that i'm expected to say yes
[7:53] Zealot Benmergui: those moments are where one most often see D/s couples break down..as the power exchange goes wonky
[7:53] Zealot Benmergui: She says No, he ends up pleading quite often...PLEEASSSEEEE submit
[7:53] ***tY***: right, once she has said no.. or wishes to negotiate the direction or order.. if he cares for her, he will change His plan..
[7:54] ***ML*** giggles and thinks of wonky things
[7:54] Zealot Benmergui: Options are always a good path...if the Dom rules out a certain choice, but leaves the other two open...
[7:54] ***tY***: yes
[7:54] ***RV***: nods
[7:55] ***tY***: as most Doms know, there are many ways to get what you want..
[7:55] Zealot Benmergui: Chocolate is always popular
[7:55] ***tY***: laughs
[7:56] ***ML***: mmmmmmm
[7:56] ***ML*** ears perk up
[7:56] Zealot Benmergui: again, each relationship is different, but usually limited walls and ultimatums is a good rule of thumb for the Dom
[7:56] ***tY***: it is a skill to get what you want.. of course submissives know this too.. they just have to be careful of obviously topping the dominant
[7:56] Zealot Benmergui: Saying "It will be this way, OR ELSE" means that you have basically given up dominance
[7:56] ***tY***: yes
[7:56] Zealot Benmergui: Now you're just a bully
[7:56] ***ML***: it can be taken into context of manipulating
[7:57] Zealot Benmergui: and it betrays one of the little secrets that Lord Thundercock Slutwhomper usually doesn;t want his chain to notice....
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: He can only Dom them, with their consent.
[7:58] ***tY***: exactly
[7:58] ***RV***: what it boils down to is this (for me) ... the Dom says "I prefer things to be this way" and the submissive either agrees or communicates why she disagrees so that the Dom can make a choice about what to do.
[7:58] ***tY***: agrees with ***RV*** too
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: that is very sensible
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: again, communication is key
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: and the ability to step out of the roles
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: calla time out
[7:59] Zealot Benmergui: say "This bothered me, and here is why" or "I can;t have it that way, I need it this way"
[7:59] Zealot Benmergui: just as the Dom can do the same
[8:00] Zealot Benmergui: leave the role and say "Look, what do you think about this..not as a submissive, but as my wife, lover, underage captive, stepsister, whatever
[8:00] ***RV***: lol
[8:00] ***tY***: I understand what you are saying.. but I don't feel like I am playing a role
[8:01] Zealot Benmergui: it is a semantics game
[8:01] Zealot Benmergui: I don;t mean role as in "Acting a part"
[8:01] Zealot Benmergui: I mean role as in "your place in life, your part in the realtionship"
[8:01] ***tY***: the dominant either has the ability to make me feel submissive, or he does not
[8:01] ***RV***: i think what he's saying is that there should be a way to communicate as equals
[8:01] ***tY***: (yes, I know what you mean)
[8:02] Zealot Benmergui: As always it depends on the relationship, but yes ***RV***, I do feel there needs to be a way to step outside of submission and Dominance
[8:02] Zealot Benmergui: however, as with Miss Yeyuan, that won;t work for some people, which is also good...as long as both sides understand that
[8:02] ***RV***: nods
[8:03] ***tY***: yes, it is back to realizing that each relationship will be different
[8:03] Zealot Benmergui: which is vitally important, and often people forget
[8:03] ***tY***: yes
[8:04] Zealot Benmergui: ugly truth...if you walk into the club right now, 50 percent of the girls, and 50 percent of the men, will be so alike it is frightening
[8:04] ***tY***: in their behaviour, you mean, Sir Zealot?
[8:04] Zealot Benmergui: it is very easy to fall into the trap of assuming that all relationships in D/s follow a certain model or template
[8:05] ***tY***: yes, like there is a template one must follow
[8:05] Zealot Benmergui: behavior yes, but also the sense you get from them, how they look, act, respond...people trying to fit themselves into a mold
[8:05] ***tY***: yes
[8:05] ***tY***: when it becomes like that.. each is interchangeable.. they are all so similar
[8:05] Zealot Benmergui: D/s shouldbe about breaking molds..about learning things about yourself that are not found on the safe path
[8:06] ***RV***: subs speakinsg in the third person is a perfect example ... for most people, that's not at all comfortable, or even required
[8:06] Zealot Benmergui: and relationship wise, sex is a pretty safe, or at least typical path
[8:06] Zealot Benmergui: there are things that can be found otherwise that sex does nothing but obscure
[8:07] Zealot Benmergui: We all have billions of examples of that sort of thing ***RV***..the term girl, for example
[8:07] ***tY***: yes, I haven't seen subs speak a lot in the 3rd person.. but certainly a lot of slaves do. especially gorean ones
[8:07] ***DS***: all gorean slaves speak in the 3rd person
[8:08] Zealot Benmergui: It is a natural term for some, others find it dismissive...personally I haven;t been into girl's since I was a boy...
[8:08] ***tY***: not true.. it is up to the owner if she speaks in the 3rd or the first
[8:08] Zealot Benmergui: It is the norm in Gor, yes..but as always, it is a point of personal preference
[8:08] ***ML***: hahaha
[8:08] ***DS***: I have seen none except one or two who may say they are someone's pet
[8:09] ***ML***: i wasnt taught to speak in 3rd person.. but yet the Masters here in SL see it being disobidient and rude
[8:09] Zealot Benmergui: But we aren;t discussing Gor truly..remember Gor is far more rule based, since it basically is based on a book of rules
[8:09] ***tY***: speaking in the 3rd person is tiresome.. I have done it enough.. it is burdonsome.. and becomes so formal..
[8:09] ***DS***: true
[8:09] ***DS***: didnt mean to interupt
[8:09] Zealot Benmergui: not at all...you stressed a very important point
[8:09] Zealot Benmergui: cultural norms
[8:10] Zealot Benmergui: in some communities certain things are done which others don;t accept
[8:10] ***DS***: and Gor IS vbery stuctured
[8:10] ***DS***: very
[8:10] ***tY***: yes
[8:10] Zealot Benmergui: nods..another aspect of non-sexual D/s is being adaptable to the surroundings
[8:10] Zealot Benmergui: There is a certain amount of "When in Rome..."
[8:11] Zealot Benmergui: a perfect example....back to the term girl
[8:11] Zealot Benmergui: for some, it is a term of affection, for others, an insult
[8:11] Zealot Benmergui: quick poll
[8:11] ***tY***: it is true that some dominants get annoyed if a submissive does not speak to them in a way they expect.. almost as if allsubmissives should be of a certain type
[8:12] Zealot Benmergui: man you don;t know, clearly Dom, calls you girl when meeting you
[8:12] ***RV***: ugh
[8:12] Zealot Benmergui: how many of you would be offended by that?
[8:12] ***RV*** raises her hand
[8:12] ***DS***: not I
[8:12] Charon Jenns: i wouldn't be offended...but a bit amused
[8:12] ***tY***: I don'tlike it, but would be unlikely to say anything if the rest of the conversation was fine
[8:12] Zealot Benmergui: nods...and that is a perfect gamur of reaction
[8:13] Zealot Benmergui: based on your own experiences, preferences and history
[8:13] ***tY***: yes
[8:13] Zealot Benmergui: adapting to preferences like thatis another aspect of non sexual D/s, very subtle but very meaningful
[8:14] ***tY***: yes
[8:14] ***tY***: smiles
[8:14] Zealot Benmergui: it is not just true for subs, but Doms as well, the difference is Doms are more likely to ignore the issue
[8:15] ***DS***: how mhow much of co-dependency involved in the whole sub thing , if you know
[8:15] Zealot Benmergui: for example...those of you who have been to these lectures before, or seen me in V or other clubs know that I prefer to call women Miss unless I am very close to them for a good period of time
[8:15] ***tY***: it sometimes feels that Doms would like subs who are like clones..
[8:15] Zealot Benmergui: some subs have taken me to task for calling them Miss
[8:16] ***tY***: yes, I have noticed that about you Sir Zealot, and it is appreciated by many, I am sure
[8:16] ***tY***: smile, I would not, but then I am not all
[8:16] Zealot Benmergui: to be honest, I do not do it for them, but for myself.,.it is a preference of my own that I impose on them....though there are some who have been so upset by it I just don;t call them anything
[8:17] Zealot Benmergui: but again, preference and the way it is handled is a way to show Dominance
[8:17] Zealot Benmergui: just as it is to show submission
[8:17] ***tY***: I think it is the misperception that Miss can only be used to indicate a Domme
[8:17] Zealot Benmergui: likely
[8:18] Zealot Benmergui: What other ways are there to show submission or dominance without attaching the ole priminator?
[8:18] ***tY***: thank you once again for the interesting discussion, Sir Zealot, I apologize but I must go, it is late here
[8:18] ***AG***: ((makes a quiet exit --ty ))
[8:18] Zealot Benmergui: Of course Miss Yeyuan, thank you
[8:18] ***tY***: thank you
[8:19] ***tY***: hugs sissie and tps home
[8:20] Zealot Benmergui: Well, if there are no more comments, I think iwill start wrapping this up for the day
[8:20] ***DS***: thanks Zealot
[8:20] Zealot Benmergui: In closing...Never be afraid of looking for the new path, the untried approach to submission or Dominance.
[8:21] ***RV***: Once again, thank you for a wonderful lecture, Z.
[8:21] Zealot Benmergui: Never assume that kneeling, or submitting sexually, or calling someone master are the only ways to express your feelings, or your nature...
[8:21] Zealot Benmergui: Who you are transcends the views of others, or your own sexuality...depend on it