Power and Powerlessness 2 - 1/12/08

[7:10] Zealot Benmergui: OK, lets go ahead then and get started
[7:10] Zealot Benmergui: Welcome A/all to the House of V’s College of Kink. My name is Zealot Benmergui, Baron BardHaven and I will be your host today. Some of you may know me from lecturing here at House of V and other locations around the grid. Others of you may know me from my recent appearance as The Tattooed Heroin Addict Pimp of Christmas Past in the annual Suicide Girls New Years Telethon, carried on quality Soft Core late night porn cable channels everywhere.
[7:11] Zealot Benmergui: The topic for today is "Power and Powerlessness Part 2”. Today we will recap part one and then look at the concepts of Power vs Free Will and Consent. Please note that for the purpose of clarity, I will tend to use “she” to refer to a submissive and “he” to refer to a Dominant, but either can be of any gender. Your humble lecturer WILL accept tips, but they must be paid to me directly, if you are so inclined, thank you.
[7:13] Zealot Benmergui: Power is a wonderful thing...and it can take many forms. For some of us, demanding to speak to the manager or telling the girl that the fries are cold and we want new covers our need for Domiance
[7:13] Zealot Benmergui: Others need something a little more spikey to float our boats
[7:14] Zealot Benmergui: Either way, Power is an essential part of all human relationships....and especially those in a D/s context.
[7:14] Zealot Benmergui: It also ensures that those cocksuckers at Burger King stay in line
[7:14] ***LS***: lol
[7:14] Zealot Benmergui: Last week we began talking about various concepts related to Power and how it is used, or not used, in BDSM and D/s relationships. We discussed the concept of Total Power Exchange and why I feel it is not really an issue in online BDSM. The long and the short of TPE in my eyes is that utterly and totally controlling all aspects of another person’s life, be they submissive or just really really indecisive is not practical, no fun and impossible online.
[7:16] Zealot Benmergui: Total Power Exchange to many people is the ultimate goal and nadir of D/s, while for others it is impossible, impratical, and makes the neighbors refise to invite us to bbqs. As with all things, it is a highly subjective, and somewhat controversial topic.
[7:16] Zealot Benmergui: Therefore we are considering more subtle, limited applications of power. In that vein we discussed two different concepts of power...power over and power with. Power over is when you can force someone to do something they don’t want to do in a hostile, aggressive or superior sort of way. For example…making someone give head to a goat just because you can and because it will debase, hurt or humiliate either the sub or the goat….or both.
[7:17] Zealot Benmergui: Power with, on the other hand, is an exchange of power in that control over the situation is surrendered willingly by one part and taken responsibly by the other. For example, ordering your sub to give head to a goat because petting zoos are her kink even though she is a little ashamed of it and therefore likes being forced to do what she really wants to do..and besides, the goat has been really well behaved this week.
[7:17] ***MM***: mmm I love the goat
[7:17] ***XD***: lol
[7:18] Zealot Benmergui: To cut to the chase on that issue, the following is a good rule and thumb: Power Over is abuse, Power With is D/s.
[7:18] Zealot Benmergui: With or without the goat.
[7:18] Zealot Benmergui: Once the concepts of TPE and Power Over/With are understood, we can look at other misunderstanding and complexities when we start discussing power in a D/s relationship, without the goat for the time being. Instead let’s look at a couple concepts that are often viewed as inimical to Power but with are essential for effective D/s.
[7:19] Zealot Benmergui: The first is Free Will. A very loaded concept indeed. To define it, “Free Will” is a philosophical term for the ability of a rational individual to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. Much like Let’s Make a Deal when Monty offered Door Number One, Door Number Two or Door Number Three. Free Will means you know your options and can choose between them, hopefully intelligently.
[7:19] Zealot Benmergui: All people have free will, or should ideally.
[7:20] Zealot Benmergui: So let me ask you, are Free Will and the submission to Power in a D/s context mutually exclusive?
[7:20] ***LS***: no?
[7:21] Zealot Benmergui: It seems like they should be, shouldn;t it? AFter all, someone weilding power over you takes yoru free will, doesn;t it?
[7:21] ***LS***: over, yes
[7:22] Zealot Benmergui: *nods...Indeed...Over
[7:22] Zealot Benmergui: Power With is another story completely
[7:22] Zealot Benmergui: When a D/s relationship involves Power With, then Free Will is alive and well, both parties freely choose the situation
[7:23] Zealot Benmergui: that is the true core of D/s....
[7:24] Zealot Benmergui: The free discision not only to surrender Power, but to accept Power
[7:24] Zealot Benmergui: After all, it is as much a choice for the Dom as it is for the sub, and often just as difficult
[7:24] Zealot Benmergui: Free Will on both their parts create the connection of Power between them
[7:25] Zealot Benmergui: Another term closely allied to Free Will is COnsent....one much loved iun BDSM circles
[7:26] Zealot Benmergui: To turn to Websters, Consent means "to give assent or approval"
[7:26] Zealot Benmergui: that concept seems right at hime in Submission, doesn't it?
[7:27] Zealot Benmergui: True submission requites both Free Will and COnsent, otherwise it is m,eaningless...just being bullied or forced.
[7:29] Zealot Benmergui: Power only comes into it's own tied with Free Will and Consent....once both of those elements are there, a Dom is free to fully excercise the power the sub gives him, safely and sanely...and with full love and committment
[7:30] Zealot Benmergui: Are their circumstances where Free Will or Consent are NOT required for D/s?
[7:31] ***LS***: i dont know of any
[7:31] Zealot Benmergui: IN the past I have had people explain to me that capture scenews or rape scenes do not need them....however I think that is nonsense
[7:32] Zealot Benmergui: since for the scene not to ACTUALLY be rape, the subs needs to have...consented to it by their own free will
[7:32] ***XD***: my Gorean male slave friends look at me in totally confusion or bewilderment when I offer them Free Will
[7:33] Zealot Benmergui: thereis simply no way to turn in terms of Power games in D/s where free will and consent are not required...and it is the duty and responsibility of each and every submissive to remember that like a mantra
[7:34] ***FR***: You're talking about just in an SL setting? For i know in RL the opposite does happen. That free will can be taken away, but in my opinion that is just abuse.. both mentally and physicaly. one thinking they ned to please the Other by doing whatever They desire in order to please Them.
[7:34] ***XD***: SL
[7:34] Zealot Benmergui: Consent and Free Will are the things that mnake everything that comes later possible..and are the keys to using Power in BDSM
[7:35] Zealot Benmergui: I mean in RL as well Miss ***FR***..and I agree with you...Certainly free will can be removed, but then it is not D/s, it is abuse or kidnapping
[7:36] Zealot Benmergui: thankfully it is much much harder to remove free will online..it requires some form of metal illness and the use of Scooby Doo style ghost projectors
[7:36] Zealot Benmergui: *Mental
[7:36] Meringue Pavlova is Online
[7:37] Zealot Benmergui: Now, since no one won the ice capades tickets today, we will turn to discussion, arguments and kool aid experimentation
[7:37] ***XD***: lol
[7:37] Zealot Benmergui: What are your experiences with COnsent and Freewill online.,...has anyone tried to convince you they were overrated?
[7:38] Zealot Benmergui: Or better, not needed?
[7:38] Zealot Benmergui: "No baby, I mean it, you will cum harder if you don;t want to...""
[7:38] ***XD***: yes, my Gor friends.. i always offer them free will and thet look at me confused
[7:38] Zealot Benmergui: and they offer you fur diapers and silly names?
[7:39] ***XD***: LOL
[7:39] Zealot Benmergui: Gor is in and of itself an excercise in consent
[7:39] ***RV***: how do you offer someone free will? that assumes they don't have it in the first place
[7:39] Zealot Benmergui: a sub CONSENTS to abide by their customes..if they feel they have no choice but to comply, I refer you to the earlier comment about mental illness and Scooby Doo
[7:39] ***MS***: she means her own, i think.
[7:40] Zealot Benmergui: nods..she offers them the IDEA of Free Will
[7:40] ***XD***: yeah.. i happened across a few boys that wanted to get to know me and i leanred later they were Gor, but they are good friends nonethless, I try to let them know there is such a thing as free will
[7:40] Zealot Benmergui: It's good for them...they should expand their reading past Airline Hostesses of Gor
[7:40] ***XD***: LOL
[7:40] ***XD***: ok
[7:41] Zealot Benmergui: I make a lot of fun of Gor, even though I know some very nice people who enjoy Gorean role play
[7:41] ***FR***: They don't take offence to you teaching Them??
[7:41] ***MS***: Gor is fantasy.
[7:41] Zealot Benmergui: and I have even had fun with it now and again
[7:41] Zealot Benmergui: of course, the admission of role play is the key
[7:41] Zealot Benmergui: and role play by it's very nature requires free will and consent
[7:41] ***XD***: btw... I am NOT Gor in the slightest.. I just seem to make friends and find out later they are after the freindship blossoms
[7:42] ***RV***: i think it's just a question of education. people in Gor exercise free will all the time - even if they don't know that's what they're doing
[7:43] Zealot Benmergui: it is usually a problem of terms...the words seem a bit mushy for Gor
[7:43] ***XD***: nods
[7:43] Zealot Benmergui: instead you get ...Master Longthrusted Pricklybladdar: Kneel slut ((if you have time and don't mind, ok?))
[7:43] ***XD***: LOL
[7:44] ***XD***: funny but true
[7:44] Zealot Benmergui: like any other form of D/s, Goir is Sub driven
[7:45] Zealot Benmergui: if every Kajira stood up tomorrow and said "Fuck your tarm riding selves, get your own goddamn blackwine"how long would they Sims last?
[7:45] ***MM***: lol
[7:45] ***MS***: By just being in Gor itself you've exercised free will to be there. Then you can take part in the roleplay/fantasy that is Gor, the thing thats created so many Gorean 'monsters' is that Norman made a huge thing out of the girl submitting, when really the women were taken anyway, the submission aspect is just romance. They are roles, not lifestyles? Just my opinion though.
[7:45] ***XD***: i've been trying to learn more about it for the sake of the friendships i have made... but I doubt I could ever be part of thier world
[7:45] ***MS***: ***XD***, i have the books on me if you want them?
[7:45] ***XD***: yes thanks
[7:46] ***XD***: thank you! *big hugs*
[7:46] Zealot Benmergui: nods...The romance element is what is focused on in Gorean role play and you consent to the fantasy up front...since if you look at the books,
[7:46] Zealot Benmergui: strip away the RP trappings and you have the dangerous concept that you can kidnap and rape a woman and make her love you for it
[7:46] ***XD***: i've never read the books
[7:46] ***MS***: indeed
[7:46] Zealot Benmergui: which is one of the brushes the mainstream like to tar BDSM with
[7:47] Zealot Benmergui: online, or even in rl role playing, you consent to play the fantasy of Gor just like a couple may consent to playing burgler and virginal houseguest
[7:47] ***MM***: there's alot of hype on the net about "no limits" slaves....if you talk to enough of them you will find that they are with people that have the same limits they do and therefore, the issue never comes up....it's still consent, and they still have the final word.....much like gor....any statement to the contrary you will find if you really talk to them is complete bullshit
[7:48] Zealot Benmergui: The inherant problem comes with Gor when you obser ve what happens when someone yanks their chain, and refuses to play along...griefing them basically
[7:48] Zealot Benmergui: what exactly can they do?
[7:49] ***MM***: mmm griefing gor.....looks around for Ling
[7:49] Zealot Benmergui: without consent, there is no where to go
[7:49] ***XD***: right
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: usually they will resort to sim efecting then standing around saying "Well done Lord Rumplepussy, you sent that slut to the slave pits of grumplash for her arrogance"when really you just sent her to the orientation area
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: *ejecting
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: becuase, it is a concent dfriven role play
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: *consent
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: again..no consent, no D/s
[7:50] ***XD***: ah well.. i will try to keep the friendship possibly .. in a vanilla kind of way.. hmmm.. as friends only maybe
[7:50] Zealot Benmergui: of course you can
[7:50] ***MM***: lol
[7:51] ***MM***: I know plenty of goreans in sl that are perfectly nice people
[7:51] Zealot Benmergui: Gor can be great fun, and actually very sexy...as long as it is understood what is under it
[7:51] ***MS***: This is the thing. It has a bad reputation because some of the 'tards who 'play' at it.
[7:51] ***XD***: yeah.. that the part i don't get.. i don't understand Gor yet *nods*
[7:52] Zealot Benmergui: exactly..YOu get enough 15 year old boys in one room with their dicksin their hands, something bad is going to happen
[7:52] ***MM***: well sl gor is very different now than what it used to be and incredibly different than anything norman wrote
[7:52] ***LS***: so, not confusing power with and power over, not buying into the kidnap/rape as being the same as consensual rp
[7:52] ***XD***: i am sure you are right Mailene
[7:53] Zealot Benmergui: well, kidnap/rape CAN be a consensual role play if both sides consent to it...if one side DOESN'T consent.,.then it is not rp...it is kidnap/rape
[7:53] ***AP***: lol
[7:53] ***LS***: yes. i was trying to connect to when you said the dangerous idea that kidnap/rape (real one) can lead to love
[7:54] ***MM*** raises an eyebrow
[7:54] Zealot Benmergui: well, that is a dangerous idea when someone assumes that consent is not needed
[7:54] Zealot Benmergui: for example, if I tell Mali...Ï am going to kidnap you and fuck your brains out"
[7:54] Zealot Benmergui: she can say Well, you'll have to catch me and tie me to the front of yoru truck first....and off we go
[7:55] Zealot Benmergui: if you pick up a random woman at the 7-11 and assume that raping them will make them love you...that is too many flavorsd of bad to even discuss here and hopefully you will get what is coming to you
[7:55] ***MM***: prison
[7:55] ***AP***: smiles
[7:55] Zealot Benmergui: one is consensual role play, the other is 25 to life
[7:56] ***LS***: yes - so do u feel some buy into this as part of gor? (i dont know much about gor)
[7:56] Zealot Benmergui: absolutely..same with the capture sims...women go there to consent to the fantasy
[7:56] Zealot Benmergui: but it is CONSENT
[7:56] ***LS*** nods
[7:56] ***MM***: they just say it differently
[7:56] Zealot Benmergui: just porting in you get notecards saying ÏF YOU DO NOT CONSENT< LEAVE NOW
[7:56] ***MM***: if you talk to them you will find they are no different as far as consent
[7:57] ***MM***: all of those sims allow rp limits
[7:57] ***MM***: they have to
[7:57] ***XD***: brb phone
[7:57] ***AP***: well, if you go there one assumes that you are there for the rp, but most ppl talk in Im to confirm it first, if they do not know each other
[7:57] Zealot Benmergui: nods
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: often times they wioll be publically posing Ï ram my cock up your nasty little ass, slut, you like that? You ever get a cock this big at the convent school, you handicapped little virgin?
[7:58] ***MM***: rofl
[7:58] ***AP***: grins
[7:58] Zealot Benmergui: while in IM they are saying "Hi Janice...How are the kids? did you ever get that new laptop?"
[7:58] ***MS***: pmsl
[7:58] ***AP***: nods, and laug hs
[7:58] ***LS***: lol
[7:58] ***XD***: LOL
[7:59] Zealot Benmergui: the problem is when the concepts of consensual role play get lost, which is why I stress again and again it is up to the SUBS to remember they have the power in this situation
[7:59] Zealot Benmergui: the consent has to be their first
[8:00] ***AP***: absolutely
[8:00] Zealot Benmergui: Power is meaningless in D/s with out the subs consent
[8:00] ***AP***: it's just bullying then :)
[8:00] ***XD***: i agree
[8:00] Zealot Benmergui: In place of Total Power Exchange I would say it should be True Power Exchange..neither Dom or sub are powerless...
[8:00] ***MM***: usually it's more of the sub/slave feeling like they can't say anything
[8:00] ***MM***: and not taking care of themselves
[8:01] ***MM***: Dom/mes are not mind readers
[8:01] ***LS***: so where does the Dom's power come into it - they have power too, right?
[8:01] Zealot Benmergui: of course..a Dom's Power lies in the responsibility given them by the sub, and exercising it
[8:02] Zealot Benmergui: If he handles it properly, then it causes a submissive reponse in the sub....almost like a kind of harmony
[8:02] ***LS***: :)
[8:02] ***AP***: But we have to get out of that, not being able to say anything feeling, so we dont get treated as doormats, a good Dom/Master, should allow you to speak up if you are troubled
[8:02] Zealot Benmergui: she feels safe that he ius using the gift she gave him, so she can relax and let him take control
[8:02] ***MM***: yes but you have to tell them you are troubled....many don't do that
[8:02] ***AP***: yes, exactly Maliene
[8:02] ***LS***: how do u tell a good Dom?
[8:02] Zealot Benmergui: it has to be a two way street
[8:03] ***MS***: The Dominant has the daily use of the power? The sub just uses their own when they have to. The trick is finding someone who is a friend and a confidante as well as a Dominant
[8:03] ***MM***: the same way you tell anyone else
[8:03] ***MM***: we are human beings not roles
[8:03] ***LS***: i know
[8:03] ***AP***: yes, just come right out and say it
[8:03] ***AP***: politely of course
[8:03] ***AP***: :)
[8:03] Zealot Benmergui: As to the concept of a good DOm knowing..yes, a good Dom will know something is not right..but if the sub won;t tell him what it is, what can he do?
[8:04] ***MM***: lol not necessarily imo important discussions shouldn't be role driven at all
[8:04] Zealot Benmergui: he can ask questions, but the sub has to give answers..even if that answer is Ïdon't know, help me explore this"
[8:04] Zealot Benmergui: Politeness is always helpful, but in some situations being rude has uses
[8:05] ***MS***: I agree Maliene, there are times when the 'roles' have to slide.
[8:05] Zealot Benmergui: nods...Indeed..one of my first rules is there has to be a way for Master/slave to be set aside and just be people...
[8:05] Zealot Benmergui: preferably people who love each other
[8:05] ***MM*** smiles
[8:05] ***XD***: yes
[8:05] ***AP***: yes, you have afterall a relationship first and foremost
[8:06] ***XD***: i always try to be friends as well
[8:06] ***MM***: but.....
[8:06] ***MM***: unless it's absolutely necessary
[8:06] ***LS***: you had said earlier, that in some ways it is difficult for the Dom as well. could u say more about that
[8:06] ***MM***: try not to confront him/her in public
[8:06] ***MS***: I understand why you said that Angelika. It is hard to slip out of respecting someones authority, it just has to be done sometimes.
[8:06] ***AP***: you need to be tactful too, yes
[8:06] Zealot Benmergui: nods..Masters do stupid things when embarassed publically
[8:06] ***MM***: yes...that's asking them not to listen...and respect is a two way street
[8:06] Zealot Benmergui: Miss ***LS***, consider the way men are raised in the new millenium
[8:07] ***LS***: ok
[8:07] Zealot Benmergui: most of what is considered normal for a Dom would be called being a sexist prick by the mainstream
[8:07] ***MM***: lol
[8:07] Zealot Benmergui: it takes a leap of faith just as real as the sub faces for a man or woman to accept their Dominance
[8:07] ***XD***: i started out submissive and have slowly turned Dominant.. its harder than it looks.. i have learned a lot
[8:08] Zealot Benmergui: they have to "come out of the closet"to a degree
[8:08] Zealot Benmergui: "Mom, Dad...I like to whip sluts....BUT I AM STILL YOUR SONNNN!"
[8:08] ***LS***: lol
[8:08] ***XD***: lol
[8:08] ***LS*** nods
[8:09] ***MM***: there's no mystical force that gives a Dom/me the ability to know what you are thinking.....all that " a good Dom would know" stuff is bunk
[8:09] Zealot Benmergui: The hardest thing for anyone to accept is usually themselves
[8:09] ***LS***: i never said that to...i just said, how do u tell when u have a good Dom ;-)
[8:09] ***MM***: you don't know what they are thinking all the time...do you?
[8:09] ***LS***: tho*
[8:09] Zealot Benmergui: well, having a Magic Penis(tm) helps
[8:09] ***MM***: yes "you" is generic, sorry
[8:09] ***LS***: k sorry
[8:10] ***MM***: just like any other relationship...if it works it does...if it feels right, it is
[8:10] ***XD***: yeash
[8:10] ***LS***: yes that part of it but am trying to learn more about the rest
[8:10] Zealot Benmergui: if not, put rat poison in their virtual tea
[8:10] ***LS***: lol
[8:10] ***MM***: lol
[8:10] ***XD***: lol
[8:10] ***MM***: there's no rules though
[8:10] ***MM***: it's different for everyone
[8:10] ***MM***: many would scoff at our relationship....I've never been happier
[8:10] ***LS***: i know...but themes like the topic today
[8:11] Zealot Benmergui: exactly..a relationship that is one person;s image of a naked trainwreck may be anothers vision of heaven
[8:11] ***AP***: sorry i got interrupted, yes, i know what you mean ( reading back) , Morganna - it's not always easy :)
[8:11] ***LS***: for instance some were saying here, a good Dom listens when his slave is troubled. that's the type of thing i mean.
[8:11] ***MM***: yes well....don't assume that d/s relationships are different than any other relationship you've had
[8:11] Zealot Benmergui: well.. a good DOm does, because a good Dom much first be a good friend
[8:11] ***MM***: the foundation is the same
[8:11] ***MS***: Well 'good Dom' DOES know when there's something wrong usually? It's easy to blanket the phrase yes i think so too, but one of the things that comes from closeness, is learning the little nuances that give away ones mood, or feelings too? Granted we have to admit the problem, but often its a big help when They have noticed and draw it out.
[8:12] ***MM***: yes
[8:12] ***MM***: but
[8:12] ***MM***: they learn that like all human beings
[8:12] ***MM***: by you talking to them
[8:12] ***MM***: after two months, I cannot hide when I am upset
[8:12] ***LS***: well that is assuming a person knows a good relationship too but that's another story
[8:12] ***MM***: but he didn't just KNOW it
[8:12] ***LS***: i'm not for a moment saying that this is not a relationship
[8:12] ***MM***: he learned because I told him
[8:12] Zealot Benmergui: by being repeated emotionally beaten in teen age social situations
[8:12] ***AP***: yes, they become mind readers to a certian point, and dont even need a crystal ball to read in between the lines - if you know them well enough :))
[8:13] ***MM***: and remember text is hard to tell context from
[8:13] ***XD***: i love when it gets to that stage but sometimes it can take months
[8:13] ***XD***: for the mind reading stage
[8:13] Zealot Benmergui: well yes, and stapping me in the thigh with a knitting needle saying I AM UPSET YOU EGOMANICAL COCKSUCKER is usually a dead giveaway
[8:13] ***AP***: yes it can
[8:13] ***MS***: hehe
[8:13] ***MM***: lol
[8:14] ***AP***: LOL
[8:14] ***LS***: lol - i dont have much problem speaking my mind, but i ask first to speak it...and in private
[8:14] ***MM*** laughs
[8:14] ***MM***: I don't
[8:14] Zealot Benmergui: nods..that is wise, and just common courtesy
[8:14] ***MM***: but....
[8:14] ***LS***: thank you
[8:14] Zealot Benmergui waits for the but
[8:14] ***MM***: I would never short of any emergency share something that was bothering me with the public
[8:14] Zealot Benmergui: nods
[8:15] ***AP***: I think that is a very good way of going for it Limonella :)
[8:15] ***MM***: too often you see people running around complaining to everyone but the person they are in the relationship with
[8:15] ***LS***: thank you angelika :))
[8:15] ***AP***: ye :)
[8:15] ***AP***: yw
[8:15] Zealot Benmergui: exactly Mali, and that is the sort of thing that a friendly IM is perfect for...
[8:16] Zealot Benmergui: Dear Master, unless you stop fucking everyone and their housepet at HoV I am leaving your sorry ass and deleting your account since you gave me your passowrd, you sorry, stupid cunt.
[8:16] Zealot Benmergui: Love, your sub
[8:16] ***LS***: lol
[8:16] ***MM***: lol
[8:16] ***XD***: LOL
[8:16] ***MS***: well phrased
[8:16] ***XD***: god, that sounds like a lot of masters are guilty of anyway..
[8:16] ***XD***: giggles
[8:16] ***MM***: often
[8:17] ***LS*** nods.
[8:17] ***XD***: nods
[8:17] ***MM***: that is a case of having unrealistic expectations though
[8:17] ***LS***: on whose part?
[8:17] ***MM***: both
[8:17] Zealot Benmergui: well, if it is included in the rules of a relationship..if he says Baby, I am totally faithful to you and you find 7 shades of lipglose on his cock, like the rings of a tree...problem
[8:17] ***MM***: people are either the type that needs monogamy or not
[8:17] ***XD***: lol
[8:17] ***AP***: ha! yes, i see what you mean about not always needing to be polite, but to me that would have already been discussed before that stage, and obviously ignored LOL then pull out the big guns and go in shooting
[8:18] ***AP***: re the dear Master letter
[8:18] ***MM***: you can't really change that any more than you can convince someone to be poly
[8:18] ***LS***: tho online it can be very hard to know these things...what to do if someone keeps going back on their promises, though, for instance.
[8:18] ***MM***: it's just the way people are at that time in their life
[8:18] ***LS***: of any type
[8:18] ***MM***: true
[8:18] ***MM***: many say what they think other people want to hear instead of the truth
[8:18] ***LS***: is that an abuse of power, or of trust?
[8:18] ***MM***: and you can't know when that's happening
[8:19] Zealot Benmergui: sorry, phone
[8:19] ***LS***: ita maliene, some things or actions can be seen some can't
[8:20] ***MM***: of course
[8:20] ***MM***: I think especially in the sl world
[8:20] ***LS***: yes
[8:20] ***LS***: that's what i meant, was agreeing w/u
[8:20] ***MM***: you have to be careful that you are with soemone that really truly wants to be monogamous though
[8:20] ***MM***: before you agree to or require that
[8:20] ***LS***: yes if that is one of the rules both want
[8:20] ***LS***: do u mean that it should be the same for both maliene
[8:21] ***MM***: yes
[8:21] ***LS***: i.e. if slave can't play neither can master lol
[8:21] ***MM***: no
[8:21] ***LS***: ok
[8:21] ***MM***: I don't mean the rule should go the same way
[8:21] ***LS***: ok
[8:21] ***MM***: that's up to what you agree upon
[8:21] ***AP***: yes, its all too easy to say you are 'fine' when you are bursting with anger behnd the screen
[8:21] ***LS***: k
[8:21] ***MM***: I mean as a relationship structure
[8:21] ***LS*** nods @ angelika
[8:21] ***MM***: make sure you aren't asking someone to be something they are not
[8:21] ***MM***: it's a mistake I have made
[8:21] ***MM***: and he tried
[8:21] ***MM***: and he lied
[8:21] ***MM***: but I put him there
[8:21] ***LS***: oh yes - very important not to do that on either part.
[8:22] ***LS***: tho people might still be finding out who they are, too
[8:22] ***MM***: of course
[8:22] ***LS***: imo
[8:22] ***MM***: all relationships change over time
[8:22] ***AP***: Yes, that can be a problem but it's much like any relationship, you cant change some ppl, so dont think you can :) (at the begining of one i mean)
[8:22] ***LS***: well even at the start of one, someone might *think* they can be, or handle things, one way and can't
[8:22] ***MM***: yeah
[8:22] ***AP***: yes, they do change, and meld together after awhile
[8:22] ***MM***: you see that alot Limonella
[8:23] ***LS***: do u
[8:23] ***AP***: if you are suited
[8:23] ***MM***: especially with poly situations
[8:23] ***MM***: many think they can do it "if they love them enough"
[8:23] ***LS***: which there seem to be many of in sl
[8:23] ***MM***: I think you either can or cannot
[8:23] ***MM***: regardless
[8:23] ***AP***: that's experimenting, tryng to be what they want you to be
[8:23] ***MM***: and on some things you can do that
[8:23] ***MM***: but on big things
[8:23] ***MM***: like monogamy
[8:24] ***MM***: I really don't think you can change taht
[8:24] ***LS***: altho, i tihnk like tpe maybe monogamy and sl dont mix?
[8:24] Zealot Benmergui: back
[8:24] ***LS***: but i dunno, just noting how many short term things there are
[8:24] ***MM***: for alot of people yeah I think that's true limonella
[8:24] ***XD***: wb
[8:24] ***LS***: wb
[8:24] ***MS***: welcome back
[8:24] ***AP***: but you must be able to say, look if i cant do this, is there any other way we can sort out the problems it may cause, perhaps even stop altogether?
[8:24] Zealot Benmergui: short term and not monogmous are NOT the same thing
[8:24] ***MM***: I'm not sure you can get around that one regardless
[8:24] ***LS***: no i only meant, they cant be monogamous, so it ends
[8:24] Zealot Benmergui: that ius often true, yes
[8:25] ***MM***: you really cannot ask another person to be something other than the person they are fundamentally
[8:25] ***MM***: either way
[8:25] Zealot Benmergui: And with that I must start bringing this to a close for today....
[8:25] Zealot Benmergui: MY next lecture will be Thursday here, at 00:30 AM SLT