Poaching - 1/15/09

[2009/01/15 7:11] Srilania Svoboda: Please also turn off or remove any radar, scanners, or sleep Mystitools so lag is reduced.
[2009/01/15 7:11] Srilania Svoboda: Welcome to House of V's College of Kink! I'm the Newd Teacher, Srilania Svoboda, and your instructor for this lesson.
[2009/01/15 7:12] Srilania Svoboda: While I have only been in Second life for about six months, I have been about in the real world for many years, as well as out in other realms of the internet, as a submissive, then became a Domme, which I have done for about 5 years.
[2009/01/15 7:12] ***TA***: sorry
[2009/01/15 7:12] Srilania Svoboda: For any that need to leave early, all transcripts can be found at http://collegeofkink.blogspot.com
[2009/01/15 7:12] Srilania Svoboda: Today's subject is Poaching
[2009/01/15 7:12] Srilania Svoboda: or
[2009/01/15 7:12] Srilania Svoboda: Let's keep it to eggs, not people please.
[2009/01/15 7:13] Srilania Svoboda: First off, what is poaching?
[2009/01/15 7:13] Srilania Svoboda: And yes. as this is a hot topic, feel free to ask a question
[2009/01/15 7:13] Srilania Svoboda: No, I'm not talking about eggs. or food in general.
[2009/01/15 7:13] Srilania Svoboda: Well, dictionaries are a bit ambiguous on that, but we'll use the definition as it applies here.
[2009/01/15 7:13] Srilania Svoboda: Poaching-to take illegally, unfairly, or in a dishonorable fashion.
[2009/01/15 7:14] Srilania Svoboda: Our focus shall be in dishonorable and unfair taking of another Dominant's collared submissive.
[2009/01/15 7:14] Srilania Svoboda: This is an activity that is looked down upon, frowned on, and can get a person blackballed quite easily in the BDSM world.
[2009/01/15 7:14] Srilania Svoboda: Why is it looked down upon?
[2009/01/15 7:15] ***SS*** raises hand.
[2009/01/15 7:15] Srilania Svoboda: Yes?
[2009/01/15 7:15] ***SS***: Does it always involve anotehr Dominant?
[2009/01/15 7:15] Srilania Svoboda: you are asking could it be a submissive trying to take another submissive's Dominant?
[2009/01/15 7:16] ***SS***: No ma'am, I am asking if someone not considered a Dominant, but trying to take a sub from another would fall into this catagory.
[2009/01/15 7:16] ***IM***: Like someone who thinks D/s is bad and wants to "save" you?
[2009/01/15 7:16] ***SS***: YES!
[2009/01/15 7:17] Srilania Svoboda: Ok. the taking of a collared submissive would be considered poaching
[2009/01/15 7:17] Srilania Svoboda: And the saving angle, we will bring up in this discussion
[2009/01/15 7:17] ***SS***: Ok, thank you.
[2009/01/15 7:18] Srilania Svoboda: Well, let's look at what happens in a poaching. Dom A sees sub B, and decides that is the one they are looking for.
[2009/01/15 7:18] Srilania Svoboda: But, sub B is owned by Domme C, and wears a collar to show that.
[2009/01/15 7:18] Srilania Svoboda: Dom A, seeing the collar, decides to IGNORE this, and take the submissive as theirs.
[2009/01/15 7:18] Srilania Svoboda: This is looked down upon, as it does not respect the relationship the Owner and the submissive have, and is often viewed as a low and selfish method of aquiring a submissive.
[2009/01/15 7:19] Srilania Svoboda: There are a few methods by which the Poacher operates. Many poachers operate by culling, badmouthing, and promising.
[2009/01/15 7:19] Srilania Svoboda: Usually, the Poacher, finding his or her target, concocts an excuse to get the submissive alone, or to a private area in a place.
[2009/01/15 7:19] Pirate Russell raises Her hand.
[2009/01/15 7:19] Srilania Svoboda: Yes Miss Pirate?
[2009/01/15 7:19] Pirate Russell: This ALMOST sounds like a rapist, or preditor, in Vanilla world
[2009/01/15 7:20] ***TA***: nods
[2009/01/15 7:20] Srilania Svoboda: Not quite
[2009/01/15 7:20] Srilania Svoboda: Think of a Poacher as the same as it's vanilla counterpart. the Homewrecker, that chases only after married people
[2009/01/15 7:21] ***IM***: Oh.
[2009/01/15 7:21] Pirate Russell: Ok, gotcha
[2009/01/15 7:22] Srilania Svoboda: But, unfortunately, The Rapist, the Homewrecker, and The Poacher, all seem to think along similar patterns and behavioral processes
[2009/01/15 7:23] Srilania Svoboda: it can be innocent getting to know you, so don't go grilling someone for wanting to get to know someone better.
[2009/01/15 7:23] Srilania Svoboda: Once they get the target alone, the Poacher will usually find some method of souring the submissive on their owner.
[2009/01/15 7:23] ***TA***: Im sorry to be rude but life calls
[2009/01/15 7:23] Srilania Svoboda: It happens. there is a log you can get
[2009/01/15 7:24] Srilania Svoboda: Most often, the Poacher will use half truths, lies, and innuendoes to make the Owner look bad in the eyes of the submissive.
[2009/01/15 7:24] ***SS*** nods
[2009/01/15 7:25] Srilania Svoboda: I say half truths because there's always at least one or 2 little things that can be twisted and contorted to what appears to be a huge thing
[2009/01/15 7:25] Srilania Svoboda: Such talk are things like "Well, she owns two slaves already. She's not a very good Domme if she won't drop them and be single with you"
[2009/01/15 7:25] Pirate Russell clears her throat inconspicously and opens an edit window.. he he
[2009/01/15 7:26] Srilania Svoboda: Between such talk are usually promises and innuendoes about how much better things would be under the Poacher's collar.
[2009/01/15 7:26] Srilania Svoboda: Many times, the submissive, trapped by trying to remain submissive, but still loyal, shuts up and listens to these words.
[2009/01/15 7:26] Srilania Svoboda: A practiced Poacher usually learns quite well what to say and not say to sway the submissive into breaking their collar, and can be effective.
[2009/01/15 7:27] Srilania Svoboda: And yes, I've seen poachers in action. some are so smooth at it you can't tell when they stopped being nice and friendly and when they started trying to poach
[2009/01/15 7:28] Srilania Svoboda: Many Poachers, once they have gotten their target, usually satisfy their urges, then move on to the next, addicted to the chase.
[2009/01/15 7:28] Srilania Svoboda: However, there are submissives that also play a reversal of this very same game,
[2009/01/15 7:28] Srilania Svoboda: They are addicted to being chased after, and won from their Dominant.
[2009/01/15 7:28] Srilania Svoboda: It is important to watch people like this, and eventually avoid them.
[2009/01/15 7:28] Srilania Svoboda: Neither the Dominant poaching nor the submissive addicted to getting poached approach BDSM as anything other than a game.
[2009/01/15 7:29] Srilania Svoboda: As a BDSM relationship, like any relationships, are built upon the pillars of love, trust, and understanding, someone you cannot trust is not going to be a good relationship.
[2009/01/15 7:29] ***SL*** nodding
[2009/01/15 7:29] Srilania Svoboda: Subbmissives getting approached by a Poacher should make sure they inform their Dominant of this behaviour, then follow the instructions of their owners.
[2009/01/15 7:30] Srilania Svoboda: Dominants, if your submissive tells you someone is trying to poach them, try to handle it in a civilized manner.
[2009/01/15 7:30] Srilania Svoboda: Don't scream and holler at someone for talking with your sub.
[2009/01/15 7:30] Srilania Svoboda: Communicate with the Poacher, or ask staff of the place you are in to get the Poacher to stop.
[2009/01/15 7:30] Srilania Svoboda: Most places, like House of V, have Offiers and staff for things just like this, to ensure people have a good time without being harassed or treated poorly.
[2009/01/15 7:31] Srilania Svoboda: And often times, being outside of the situation, might be thinking more level headded and clearly than you or your partner might be at the time
[2009/01/15 7:32] Pirate Russell is one such officer
[2009/01/15 7:33] Srilania Svoboda: But it's important to have that main thing. COMMUNICATION! Over half of successful poachings happen not because of any other reason than the submissive and their owner aren't communicating these things, and the poacher takes advantage
[2009/01/15 7:34] Srilania Svoboda: If you Dominants wind up with a submissive, and you find them running off from your collar, then begging to come back, or enticing you to win them back, your best option is let them go.
[2009/01/15 7:34] Srilania Svoboda: Yes, it hurts to end a relationship. You probably want them so bad it hurts.
[2009/01/15 7:34] Srilania Svoboda: But, poachees have shown themselves to be untrustworthy. You can't trust they won't go do it again.
[2009/01/15 7:35] Pirate Russell: Like a spouse who leaves for another partner, how long before they do again?
[2009/01/15 7:35] Srilania Svoboda: Aye, exactly
[2009/01/15 7:35] ***SS*** bites her lips and nods.
[2009/01/15 7:35] Srilania Svoboda: Now, sometimes a person is in an abusive relationship, and your desire is not to poach, but to help them.
[2009/01/15 7:36] Srilania Svoboda: Mind you, I do not reffer to BDSM as abuse. If you practice SSC and RACK, and have the foundation and three pillars, there should not be ANY abuse in a relationship
[2009/01/15 7:37] Srilania Svoboda: SSC- Safe, Sane, and Consentual
[2009/01/15 7:37] Srilania Svoboda: RACK- Risk Aware Consentual Kink
[2009/01/15 7:37] Srilania Svoboda: I always get asked what those are, might as well define them before someone asks
[2009/01/15 7:37] Srilania Svoboda: To ensure you're not seeing something there that isn't, communicate with others.
[2009/01/15 7:38] Srilania Svoboda: If you talk to 5 or 6 other people, and they also see the same thing, then have others come with you to talk to the abused submissive.
[2009/01/15 7:38] Srilania Svoboda: Especially if the people you talk to are close friends of the submissive, this ensures no cries of poaching can be made.
[2009/01/15 7:38] Srilania Svoboda: Even then, the best advice is not to collar this person yourself.
[2009/01/15 7:39] Srilania Svoboda: Finally, some have spread a strange and quite silly notion that to collar someone's friend or aquaintance is also poaching.
[2009/01/15 7:39] Srilania Svoboda: This is a strange and silly notion, because if you were to ask the permission of every single person that might consider someone a friend, you'd likely need to talk to a few hundred people.
[2009/01/15 7:39] Srilania Svoboda: Class break for a moment
[2009/01/15 7:39] ***IM***: It seems like the the techniques of intervention and poaching are very similar, just the intention that's different?
[2009/01/15 7:40] Srilania Svoboda: I've been informed Logins are temporarily disabled, so please let others know so they don't try logging out to correct an issue. I'll wait a couple minutes
[2009/01/15 7:40] Pirate Russell sighs... here we go again!
[2009/01/15 7:41] Pirate Russell: Also I'd watch purchases... TP's.. etc
[2009/01/15 7:41] Srilania Svoboda: they can be seen as similar enough that if you DO see abuse, you should proceed carefully and with caution
[2009/01/15 7:41] ***SL***: Biggest differene I've seen is that poachers seldom have others cooberate the negative. With intervention, their are usually many saying the same thing
[2009/01/15 7:41] ***IM***: Oh. that makes sense.
[2009/01/15 7:41] ***IM***: Thank You.
[2009/01/15 7:43] Srilania Svoboda: Aye. And the nature is a very delicate matter with intervening on abuse. As Miss pirate could probably attest, if you have the abuser and abused in the same spot, the abused is more than likely going to reject any and all help, and cling to the abuser
[2009/01/15 7:43] ***SL***: A sure element of poaching is the seclusion element, get them away from others so they don't get other opinions. Hate to use it, but "here kittle girl, want some candy, it is in my van."
[2009/01/15 7:43] ***IM*** nods..
[2009/01/15 7:45] Srilania Svoboda: So yes, this is EXACTLY why intervention on abuse needs to be handled in a careful fashion. It's WAY too easy to confuse the 2
[2009/01/15 7:45] MystiTool HUD 1.3.0: Could not find script 'MystiTool Mimic'.
[2009/01/15 7:45] Srilania Svoboda: Not to mention the fact that unless this friend was in your collar, they were not your property to own.
[2009/01/15 7:45] Srilania Svoboda: However, some people have chosen this as their definition. If you find you are in a place or around people that do, find another place.
[2009/01/15 7:45] Srilania Svoboda: Many places, like House of V, use a sane definition, as a friend is not a potential collar and therefore must have each friend approached and asked.
[2009/01/15 7:46] Srilania Svoboda: While there are many varied practices, and some are contravertial, none are more frowned upon than Poaching.
[2009/01/15 7:46] Srilania Svoboda: It demonstrates a lack of real communication, and without the foundation of communication, there is no love, trust, or understanding.
[2009/01/15 7:46] Srilania Svoboda: Questions, opinions, feelings?
[2009/01/15 7:47] Srilania Svoboda: Please feel free to feed the Teacher. I eat Linden Dollars as well as most types of blood, and the occasional stray victim!
[2009/01/15 7:47] Srilania Svoboda: And no, asking for my phone number is not a valid question
[2009/01/15 7:47] ***SS*** is still curious as to how to handle someone outside of the BDSM world that feels youneed to be rescued.
[2009/01/15 7:48] Srilania Svoboda: Is this just a single person, that feels BDSM is abuse, no matter if you consent to it?
[2009/01/15 7:48] ***IM*** nods
[2009/01/15 7:48] ***IM***: Like anti-porn people. It's degrading to humans.
[2009/01/15 7:48] ***TV***: Smiles. I've had vanilla women here in SL try to save me from my evil ways and joing them in straight, boring sex
[2009/01/15 7:49] ***SS***: We get more the feeling that he simply wants what he cant have and is trying to use every reason in the book to make me run the other way.
[2009/01/15 7:49] ***SS***: He's worked veryhard on trying to get me to disobey my Master.
[2009/01/15 7:49] Srilania Svoboda: then the way to handle that is the same as any other way. Get away from the person
[2009/01/15 7:49] ***SS***: /nme nods
[2009/01/15 7:50] ***TV***: Nice thing about SL. You can always mute people unlike RL
[2009/01/15 7:50] Srilania Svoboda: If he does not respect that you are in a Loving, Trusting, and Understanding relationship, with a firm foundation laid in COMMUNICATION, then they aren't a good person to have in your life
[2009/01/15 7:51] ***SS***: Yes, I understand.. I hostess at several clubs and though I have been told not to speak to this person, he comes to my jobs and addresses me as the hostess.. I have also been asked not to mute him so that he may eventaully hang himself with something reportable.
[2009/01/15 7:52] Srilania Svoboda: you are on staff there?
[2009/01/15 7:52] ***SS***: But I let Master Luca know the second he speaks to me and whats been said.. it's jsut very frustrating on both parts. Yes Ma'am, I am.
[2009/01/15 7:52] Srilania Svoboda: Do you have harassment procedures at these jobs?
[2009/01/15 7:52] ***IM***: It's like working with a very religious person, constantly trying to "save" you. Avoiding the topic sometimes works, otherwise just be strong and ignore that part of the conversation.
[2009/01/15 7:52] ***SS***: Yes, and he's now been banned at 3 of the 4 clubs I work at. =)
[2009/01/15 7:53] Srilania Svoboda: then continue working the process at your other job, till he gets banned as well, and then shut him out.
[2009/01/15 7:53] ***SS*** nods, "Thank you."
[2009/01/15 7:53] ***TV***: But is there a danger in misinterpreting harmless flirting (like most do in HoV) with a serious approach. Hard to tell the difference sometimes
[2009/01/15 7:54] Srilania Svoboda: And if they totally refuse to do this, then you might wish to consider dropping the place that is not assisting their workers in dealing with harassment
[2009/01/15 7:54] ***TV***: Wonders how long SL would stay open if they banned flirting. Grins
[2009/01/15 7:55] ***IM*** laughs
[2009/01/15 7:55] ***TV***: But cleartly Selestial is coping with more than mere harlmess flirting
[2009/01/15 7:55] ***SS***: Well I wait for him to do something that crosses the line.. hes usualyl very good at that. I dont want to just run to the owners and cry "He's picking on me."
[2009/01/15 7:55] Srilania Svoboda: As Harassment, of the nature you are starting to make me see is going on with you, is not only rude, callous, disrespectful, and wrong, it's ALSO against the Terms of Service, and can be reported to Linden labs
[2009/01/15 7:55] Pirate Russell has had a couple of, what I thought to be, good friends, try to poach one of My other girls. I verbally blasted them, muted them, and they are the only two that I have ordered girls to Mute. It cost Me a 'mutual friend' in the crossfire
[2009/01/15 7:55] ***SS***: Yes, it's not flirting, it demeaning and degrading and disrespectful what he does and says.
[2009/01/15 7:56] Srilania Svoboda: try to make your job that is not cooperating see that this person is making you uncomfortable, and inform them he's been banned in other places
[2009/01/15 7:57] Srilania Svoboda: And worst case, there are ALWAYS clubs and places to work
[2009/01/15 7:57] ***TV***: Selestial. Has your Master confronted this jerk?
[2009/01/15 7:58] ***IM***: Several thing that usually work, always answer in open chat, that often embarasses them so they stop. Ask your place of work to ban him. Most clubs would rather lose a jerk of a customer than an employee. File an abuse report. Bring a friend to gang up on him in open chat if nothing else works.
[2009/01/15 7:58] ***SS***: Thank you.. it's not that they are not cooperating, I have not brought it totheir attention as of yet becasue he's not crossed a visible line.. but tonight will be my first night back ther since he ahs been banned at the others. I don't thinkthey will give issue. Yes, Sir, he has.
[2009/01/15 7:59] Srilania Svoboda: yes, that's the biggest thing. According to STRICT interpretation of the ToS, log sharing can get you in trouble. So don't respond to ANYTHING to this person in a private IM window
[2009/01/15 7:59] Srilania Svoboda: Reply in local chat, in front of others
[2009/01/15 7:59] ***SS***: It seems that we are doing all the right things then, that was my concern. Oh, thank you, I didnt know that.
[2009/01/15 8:00] ***IM***: Even repeat what he said, if you can like "you keep saying my lifestyle is wrong, pleas leave me alone, i'm tired of hearing that over and over."
[2009/01/15 8:01] ***SS***: Oh, good idea
[2009/01/15 8:01] ***TV***: Smiles. Tell him his lifestyle seems infinitely boring to you
[2009/01/15 8:01] ***SS*** giggles
[2009/01/15 8:01] Pirate Russell: Don't necessarily quote from the log, or you can be accused of releasing that communication
[2009/01/15 8:02] ***IM***: right, paraphrase.
[2009/01/15 8:02] ***TV***: constantly embarrass him in front of others. He'll eventually leave
[2009/01/15 8:02] Srilania Svoboda: And yes, I did bring up log sharing in regards to dealing with asshattery like this because I personally have seen what happens. *rubs her sore bottom*
[2009/01/15 8:02] ***IM*** nods. He'll realize he's losing and looking like an idiot.
[2009/01/15 8:02] Pirate Russell giggles
[2009/01/15 8:03] Srilania Svoboda: But, join us next week for "What syrup goes with Twatwaffles", unless i come up with a better class