Tops and Bottoms and Switches OH MY!: D/s Terminology - 12/8/08

[0:39] Zealot Benmergui: Welcome A/all to the House of V’s College of Kink. My name is Zealot Benmergui, Baron BardHaven and I will be your host today. Some of you may know me from lecturing here at House of V and other locations around the grid. Others of you may know me from my recent third place finish on television’s “America’s Next Top Teenage Transvestite Lingerie Model”.
[0:40] Zealot Benmergui: The topic for today is "Tops and Bottoms and Switches OH MY!: D/s Terminology”. Today we will look at a few of the most often misunderstood and misused terms in online D/s. Please note that for the purpose of clarity, I will tend to use “she” to refer to a submissive and “he” to refer to a Dominant, but either can be of any gender. Your humble lecturer WILL accept tips, but they must be paid to me directly, if you are so inclined, thank you.
[0:41] Zealot Benmergui: The online world, in all of its many flavors and fetishes, loves terms and definitions. Everyone needs a term or two to define who they are and what they like in Second Life. Just take a look at your profile, I bet it has a few attempts at using words to define who you are, or who you aren’t.
[0:41] ***ZA***: hey ling and sean this is ***JH***
[0:41] Zealot Benmergui: Disconnected words are often the only we have to present a quick butcher’s impression of who we are to another person in SL. We use those descriptions to entice lovers, make friends, drive way trolls…or sometimes to attract trolls as well. Sl is very jaded, you can’t just walk into a bar, strip off your panties and slap them down on the bar the way you would in real life. Everybody does that in SL…here you need to use words.
[0:41] ***SM***: gidday ***JH***
[0:41] ***JH***: Hi ***SM***, and Ling.
[0:41] ***SA***: hi ***JH***
[0:42] Zealot Benmergui: And words canget complex..far more then rude gestures or erotic leathergoods
[0:42] Zealot Benmergui: The words we use are often misunderstood, or misused, or have meanings that can be very very subjective. So that leaves us in a pickle. We can try to create totally specific, unique terms for our own sexuality and just hope that people get our meaning, such as Heterobondagesadistavaginosexual or Sactoliciousbeastioanaldildoista. Besides being unpronounceable, they would mean you would need decoder rings to get laid. Instead we tend to use terms “off the shelf” and hope that we can make them fit. Oftentimes they don’t.
[0:43] Zealot Benmergui: Let’s look at a few of the more commonly misunderstood terms as an example. Take Top and bottom for instance. Some people assume they are interchangeable with Dom and sub when they actually tend to be both far broader and far most specific at the same time. In technical terms, a Top is just the person who is the active element of a scene, in charge so to speak, while a bottom is the passive side. The Fucker and the fuckee, for lack of a better term. They are often temporary terms, lasting just for that specific scene and are often used in the making of pornography to define who will be doing what on screen.
[0:44] Zealot Benmergui: If someone is a Top today, it does not mean they will be a Top tomorrow, or that they have connection beyond the immediate and somewhat fleshy to the bottom they are with.
[0:45] Zealot Benmergui: bottoms are much the same. It really only tells you what "role" they are playing at that moment, what element of a sexual combination they are. a bottom is usually the passive side, at least physically.
[0:46] Zealot Benmergui: COmpared to Dom and sub, Top and bottom don;t carry the emotional or phyisophical weight of those two words, but are often misused in Sl and other online worlds to try and mean the same thing, when they do not.
[0:47] Zealot Benmergui: There is also a readily used term in the lifestyle both online and rl, Topping from the Bottom, which some use to indicate a submissive who attempts to manipulate or control their Dom...this is another misuse and a slight misunderstanding of the relative roles of bottoms and subs.
[0:47] ***OE***: topping from the bottom?
[0:48] ***BM***: switching role I believe He means ***OE***
[0:48] Zealot Benmergui: smiles...not so much
[0:48] ***OE***: ok
[0:49] ***BS***: it means when the sub says flog harder they are trying to control the sceen,,,lol
[0:49] Zealot Benmergui: Topping fromthe Bottom simply means the apparently passive side of the couple is actually incontrol, often leading the Active part, the Top, to do what he or she wants...they are controlling the action, even though they seem to be the bottom.
[0:49] ***OE***: not in the heat of moment.. in cases
[0:50] Zealot Benmergui: That is a not terribly subtle way it can be done, ***BS***, often times it is far more effective and subtle...
[0:50] ***BM***: so a ...spinning top in other means? (bad pun joke I know)
[0:50] ***WA*** chuckles lightly.
[0:50] ***OE***: bottom may want and even beg..doesn't mean it will be the way
[0:51] Zealot Benmergui: I find the idiom doesn;t really apply to most Dom.sub relationships, since most people with experience will tell you that the active force in a couple is very often, in fact should be the sub, as she is the true element in control of a D.s relationship.
[0:51] ***OE***: truth
[0:52] ***OE***: in the D/s aspect
[0:52] Zealot Benmergui: But because the idiom is very common, some people blur the lines between bottom and sub and Top and Dom...adding to the overall confusion.
[0:52] ***OE***: truth
[0:52] ***BM***: bit of a paradox that makes it sounds the deeper and sub's slavery the deeper their control of the releatonship ..an intresting point
[0:53] Zealot Benmergui: It is usually a safe bet to say that Dom and sub refer to roles in a relationship, while Top and bottom refer to positions in a scene
[0:53] ***BS***: so it is your view because the sub CONSENTS to submit they are actually in control of the D/s relationship?
[0:53] Zealot Benmergui: Of course
[0:54] Zealot Benmergui: that is the essential element of Consent in SSC, safe, sane, consensual. A submissive needs to consent to submit...it is an active exercise of will, therefore the main factor that controls the relationship
[0:55] Zealot Benmergui: You can Dom your little heart out, if the submissive doesn;t choose to submit, you are just another jerk in leather chaps
[0:55] ***OE***: laffs so true
[0:56] Zealot Benmergui: Lets look at another of the terms that people tend to use pretty casually, but oiften incorrectly. Switch.
[0:57] Zealot Benmergui: Common wisdom says that if you are a switch, you are neigher Dom or sub, or both, depending on your mood, your partner, the phases of the moon, whatever.
[0:57] Zealot Benmergui: Some people feel that a Switch just can;t make up their mind.
[0:57] ***MM*** laughs
[0:58] Zealot Benmergui: Actually, if you look at human sexuality over all, you will find that almost all of us are switches, to some extent
[0:59] Zealot Benmergui: Every sexual encounter or relationship has a different mix of elements for each partner, it is only in something like D/s where we try to define those elements and restrict them to one partner or another
[1:00] Zealot Benmergui: We call ourselves Doms and subs because that is what we choose to be, or the way we are most of the time...but no one is every one thing, all the time.
[1:00] ***OE***: as in a wedding ring and marriage contract
[1:00] Zealot Benmergui: I have had people who tried to explain to me that they are totally DOm, 100%, allthe time, and the last time they had vanilla sex they were 7
[1:00] ***OE***: smiles
[1:00] ***BM***: am Gemini ....that tis My story and I am sticking with it *slight chuckle*
[1:01] Zealot Benmergui: Once I finished laughing at them, I suggested that if they leave their mother's computer room more often, they might actually meet real girls
[1:01] Zealot Benmergui: lol
[1:01] ***OE***: lol.
[1:01] ***BS***: D/s is a poer exchange that that exchange vories with the people involverd, the circumstances they are in and their back grounds and needs
[1:01] Zealot Benmergui: A Switch, in my opinion, is simply someone who has decided not to saddle themselves with a more specific label
[1:02] ***PM***: I'm going to throw this out here. We took off Tora's titler before we got here. It would be NICE if others would do the same. *Stern, but nice Smile*
[1:02] Zealot Benmergui: There can be many reasons for this, but it is also a somewhat brave choice, as a lot of people in the lifestyle misunderstand Switcvhes
[1:03] Zealot Benmergui: Lets not worry about things like decorum over things like titlers...some people wear them others don;t. Matter of personal preference that doesn;t really impact the lecture.
[1:05] Zealot Benmergui: Many Doms misunderstand Switches and therefore will avoid them, for lots of silly reasons. Such as the fear that they will suddenly cease submitting and try and Dom the Dominant in the middle of a scene, when I suppose he is most vulnerable...
[1:05] ***ZA***: sorry to leave thanks Z
[1:05] Zealot Benmergui: and so the spectre of submissive strap on anal rape rears it's uply head...
[1:05] Zealot Benmergui: night Zalina
[1:06] Zealot Benmergui: Be well Zalina
[1:06] Zealot Benmergui: mmm anal rape
[1:06] Zealot Benmergui: Yeah I thought you'd like that
[1:06] ***MM***e laughs
[1:06] ***BS***: lol
[1:06] Zealot Benmergui: Other times they assume they won;t be truly submissive, or a strong Dominant, because they profess to being Switches.
[1:06] ***JH***: :)
[1:07] ***OE***: then a matter of them just not knowing where they acturally belong, perhaps
[1:07] ***OE***: or even lifestyle
[1:07] Zealot Benmergui: For most switches, it simply means that they don;t feel the need to label themselves as one thing or another...and for most it really depends on who they are with...with certain people they are submissive, with others, Dominant...much like we all are in our daily lives
[1:08] Zealot Benmergui: It can be that Miss ***OE***. Some Switches don;t feel they understand themselves enough to commit to one extreme or another
[1:08] Zealot Benmergui: Or are not willing to tie themselves down to one specific streotype
[1:09] Zealot Benmergui: or they truly can be BOTH things...something people really seem to struggle with understanding
[1:09] ***OE***: this is my discernment when i have heart to hearts
[1:10] Zealot Benmergui: Absolutely. Again we ALL have both submissive and Dominant elements of our character...some of us lean more towards one or the other....while some feel they are more balanced, or wish to be more balanced.
[1:11] Zealot Benmergui: These are all concepts that are well suited to dicussion, so before I open the floor, let me summarize,,,
[1:11] Zealot Benmergui: Terms are very important in online D/s as they give us more structure then we usually have here, and provide people with clues as to how to react to us.
[1:11] ***BS***: many people see switches as confused people who can not make up their minds, and somethimes they are, but often they are truely both dominants and submissives
[1:12] Zealot Benmergui: The terms Top and bottom usually refer to roles in a scene rather then a relationship, but are often misused to be the same as Dom and sub
[1:13] Zealot Benmergui: And the term Switch can mean many things, but usually refers to someone who has opted not to embrace one extreme or another, and feel comfortable expressing themselves as both a Dom and a sub.
[1:13] ***BS***: to me dominant and submissive are who we are and top and bottom are roles we play
[1:13] Zealot Benmergui: Now, I open the floor to continued discussion, debate, and chocolate champagne spritzers
[1:13] Zealot Benmergui: mmm chocolate
[1:14] ***MR***: chocolate?
[1:14] ***JH***: Really sorry Zealot, I actually to go to work. Thanks for the lecture though! By everyone.
[1:14] Zealot Benmergui: That is very close to my view BK...Top and bottom are physical terms, Dom and sub are emotional ones
[1:14] Zealot Benmergui: bye ***JH***
[1:14] ***vK*** question please?
[1:14] Zealot Benmergui: Work is like that...be safe
[1:14] ***OE***: You're still a puff of cloud to me, Zealot ::smiles::
[1:14] Zealot Benmergui: Certainly Miss ***vK***
[1:14] ***BS***: damn for chocolates i may switch to a bottem myself,,,lmao
[1:14] Zealot Benmergui: Does that mean I am a bottom, Miss ***OE***?
[1:15] ***OE***: what a cloud/
[1:15] ***BS***: do anything for chocolate
[1:15] ***vK*** in the case of a Switch can one maintain Dominant or submissive for substained lengths of times with the other needing?
[1:15] ***MR***: depends on the chocolates Brutal...Godiva for sure lol
[1:16] ***OE***: i suggested, did not demand to have You go into apperance
[1:16] ***OE***: bottom?
[1:16] Zealot Benmergui: It depends on the individual, but I would say if they have a relationship with a partner that brings out one of their sides, then yes, they would be consistant.
[1:16] Zealot Benmergui: laughs...Miss ***OE***, I was suggesting that being a cloud seemed somewhat bottom to me..not that you were forcing me to do anything
[1:16] ***SM***: someone say chocolate?
[1:16] ***vK*** thankYou
[1:16] Zealot Benmergui: after all, we are, all of us, M Linden's bitches
[1:17] ***OE***: my point!
[1:17] ***OE***: laffs
[1:17] ***BS***: i may bottom to lindens but i will never submit,,,lol
[1:17] Zealot Benmergui: LOL
[1:18] Zealot Benmergui: Well, how many of you would refer to yourselves as Switches?
[1:18] ***BS***: avtars unite
[1:18] ***MM***e raises her hand
[1:18] ***OE***: Zealot is correct .. and .. i value the inbetween the lines
[1:18] ***BS***: tosses gthe raised hand a chocolate
[1:19] Zealot Benmergui: How would you respond to Miss ***vK***'s question then, Mali?
[1:19] ***OE***: not i. though i had an interesting statement made to me today
[1:19] Zealot Benmergui: hmm well I've talked to alot of switches over the years and most of them have a primary role
[1:19] Zealot Benmergui: for myself...I cannot walk away from my primary role
[1:19] Zealot Benmergui: when I did have subs irl...I bottomed to a dominant friend occasionaly
[1:20] Zealot Benmergui: but I think that's more the masochism need than the d/s role issue
[1:20] Zealot Benmergui: if that makes sense
[1:20] ***OE***: ..but at one time you may have Maliene
[1:20] Zealot Benmergui: but you didn;t feel you wre their sub?
[1:20] ***OE***: you found your place
[1:20] ***OE***: many haven't
[1:20] Zealot Benmergui: when I bottomed? no...I had a primary relationship...it was well established that there was no d/s relationship with my top
[1:20] Zealot Benmergui: in fact my sub watched
[1:20] Zealot Benmergui: I think you're right Miss ***OE***, but I see Place as more a sense of peace with your own nature
[1:21] Zealot Benmergui: *nods to Mali...How did your sub react to it?
[1:21] Zealot Benmergui: well of course he struggled with not being able to fill that need
[1:21] ***OE***: excately. our *nature*
[1:21] Zealot Benmergui: Thatis often another fear about being Switch, that your subs would think less of a Dom that submitted to anyonje
[1:21] Zealot Benmergui: but it was something we discussed very openly going into the relationship
[1:21] Zealot Benmergui: well he switches too
[1:22] Zealot Benmergui: nods
[1:22] Zealot Benmergui: That certainly helps
[1:22] Zealot Benmergui: so the issue was that I wouldn't switch with him...but honestly it was quite horrible when we tried
[1:22] Zealot Benmergui: What was theinteresting comment you mentioned, Miss ***OE***?
[1:22] Zealot Benmergui: Why do you feel it was horrible Mali, due to you as individuals, or as two switches?
[1:23] Zealot Benmergui: no I just didn't identify with him as being dominant at all
[1:23] Zealot Benmergui: so switching with him was very awkward for him and also not very fulfilling for me
[1:23] ***OE***: an Dominant told me He thought me Domme'. i asked why He thought that .. He said my actions and speaking
[1:23] Zealot Benmergui: nods..you were sued to seeing him a certain role..where as with someone else, they may say they couldn;t see him NOT being Dominant
[1:23] Zealot Benmergui: *nods to Miss ***OE***...that is a very important point, a major misunderstanding
[1:23] Zealot Benmergui: I get that too ***OE***....more like...you're not submissive enough
[1:23] ***OE***: then went into the onlineism.
[1:24] Zealot Benmergui: personality isn't role
[1:24] ***TS*** raises hand with a question
[1:24] ***OE***: i simply ended, i am who i am. and left it
[1:24] Zealot Benmergui: lots of people seem to assum that submissives can;t be strong, or outspoken, or stand up for themselves or their friends
[1:24] Zealot Benmergui: Yes Miss ***TS***
[1:24] ***TS***: Maybe a little related, but Could a submissive be the top in a scene? Maybe an example as I'm having a hard time picturing it?
[1:24] ***MR***: the "doormat" myth
[1:25] Zealot Benmergui: OK, an example...
[1:25] ***MR***: just because one is submissive in a personal relationship does not mean they're submissive in all areas of their lives
[1:25] Zealot Benmergui: the Dom tells the sub do describe in detail a fantasy of theirs...which the Dom will then make jhimself a part of...she relates a fantasy of being imprisoned, so he makes himself a guard, and does to her what she describes in the story
[1:26] Zealot Benmergui: she is Topping him, telling him what she wants done, but he is still very much the Dom in the scene
[1:27] ***TS***: Yes, I see. If a person didn't know better, could this also be mistaken for switching?
[1:27] Zealot Benmergui: Anything could be mistaken for Switching if look at from a certain angle
[1:27] ***TS*** laughs
[1:28] ***GS*** smiles, hi baby
[1:28] Zealot Benmergui: a more clear cut example...the submissive wants to become better at giving head which she has certain issues abouit...so the Dom orders her to experiment on him....she is obeying his wishes, but is in control of the sex
[1:28] Zealot Benmergui: mmm head
[1:28] ***OE***: *giggles*
[1:29] Zealot Benmergui: Bottoming and being submissive often go hand in hand, but they don;t have to
[1:29] ***TS***: That makes more sense then, thank you
[1:29] Zealot Benmergui: and it is a mistake to assume a bottom is a sub
[1:31] Zealot Benmergui: Just as it is a mistake to assumer a Switch is just dithering between Dom and sub...we are each individials, and must be judged as our selves, not as the terms we use or the roles we play
[1:31] Zealot Benmergui: Now, to complete a little business...I remind you again humbly that your lecturer does accept tips paid directly to him, as he can;t rez a tip jar
[1:32] Zealot Benmergui: The next lecture here at House of V will be on Monday at 7 AM SLT and be entiled "What do I do NOW: Dealing with relationships gone wrong..."
[1:32] ***WA*** will be safely in a come at 7am, but tosses the good man a tip anyhow.
[1:32] Zealot Benmergui: Feel free to join my notifications group, ZBANG, for announcments of speaking gigs here and in other locations around the grid
[1:34] Zealot Benmergui: Also, you get free pie
[1:34] Zealot Benmergui: mmm pie
[1:34] Zealot Benmergui: Now I must drop offline for a bit, thank you all for coming